Leviathan wrote:...and that, right there ladies and gentlemen, is why I still come back to this forum after all this time despite the number of posters, (especially on this thread it would seem) who are more keen to "hate you" and be right, than actually understand.
My problem is Calnago entered the thread with a thinly veiled “discs are just marketing” rant. That was neither insightful or helpful, and has no basis in fact. I’m tired of it. I will call you out on it. I think I’ve been pretty consistent in pointing out “just the facts” such as how the Alto rim lags (braking effectiveness) and where Boyd’s video was running at 15km/h.
Since it is a bit buried in this tomb of a thread now, here is my original post that @TobinHatesEveryoneWhoPreferRimBrakes takes such offense to...viewtopic.php?f=3&t=148867&start=105#p1365732
It is not at all a "thinly veiled 'discs are just marketing rant'". It was intended to provoke some thought, which it did and I really appreciate the responses from the likes of @Leviathan, @DJGarrett21 and others who clearly have more knowledge on resin technology and their applications than I do. And you too, @BobbySweeting for hanging in here on this thread.
I've always maintained that discs have their place, just that that place may not be on the highest end road bikes. And this is a huge dilemma for the big companies who promote their wares in events like the Grand Tours. It does not follow that road bikes should automatically adopt mountain bike technology for many reasons. A few being that road bikes are never axle deep in mud, road tires are much skinnier this not requiring scads of clearance that discs can provide, and then there's this stuff called pavement between these skinny tires and the dirt, leaving a relatively small contact patch where the rubber meets the road so to speak. So Tobin, please get it through your head that if I had a mountain bike or even a commuter (and rode every day to work regardless of weather), then sure, give me the discs. But for a nice road bike... no thanks. If I'm going to have to carry around ~500grams of extra weight on my bike all else being equal, I would rather it be used to make the frame stonger than on brakes. So I'm happy for you that you like your disc brakes, but don't hate others because they prefer their rim brakes. There are good arguments for both to exist in various scenarios.
And it appears that @BobbySweeting (a principal at Altos) personally prefers rim brakes too, and he states a few of the same reasons why I prefer them as well. Basically, they are simple, and they work. But as the large companies and frame manufacturers are "pushing" disc brakes, so too smaller companies must follow. I may not be a resin expert, but I do know how business works. And as several have pointed out, the cost of producing a carbon rim brake clincher that is completely void of any heat or safety issues may simply be too much for the bike industry to swallow. Especially when they can just port over their existing mountain bike braking systems along with all their added complexities and weight with little in the way of expensive new R&D. Again, this is "bottom line" decision making, there's no mistaking that. To think otherwise would be very naïve.
@BobbySweeting: I'm liking your tenacity in pursuing a holy grail of carbon clincher or even just a reliable technology for any rim brake carbon wheel, clincher or tubular. I do believe it can be done, but yes, probably at a very high cost. You must somewhat believe in the future of rim brakes, otherwise there would be absolutely no point in Altos pursuing this path. But I can see this market going forward being relatively small potatoes for the big guys, and as you also point out, there is likely a huge cost savings in production if they don't have to build wheels to as high a standard as carbon clinchers would require. Although I'd hate to think that disc wheels could potentially mean that rim quality going forward would suffer as a result, which if they adopted some of the cost cutting production measures and methods you mention would surely be the case. Rather, I see the cost savings in being able to consolidate the braking technology between road and mountain into one. Which is really what they are doing. I don't for a second believe that Campagnolo was ever truly committed to disc brake technology on road bikes, hence their dragging their feet on coming up with an offering. But compared to the likes of Shimano, they are tiny. And so too.... they must follow the trends that the big boys lay down for them. Business is business. Sometimes we innovate, sometimes we follow... but at the end of the day, we need to make money.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out. I don't pretend to think that the large manufacturers are going to let the pros continue to ride rim brakes forever, and that will be too bad, because the pro ranks and the Grand Tours are really where the most rim brake benefits can be had... by virtue of their simplicity, wheel changes, mechanics time, and probably most important of all.... less weight. And if I had to choose between two bikes...both at 6.8kg, but one had 500g less frame material than the other which had disc brakes, I'd for sure be choosing the one with the beefier frame.
And before someone yells foul for turning a thread about new carbon wheel technology into a disc vs rim brake discussion, I'll say the two are really inextricably tied together. Personally I still believe that if one can solve the heat and reliability issues of a carbon (or other suitably light strong material) rim surface for braking at a cost acceptable to the consumer, then you'd now have the biggest disc you can think of to work on. And with hydraulic rim calipers added to the mix, then there would be zero advantages to disc brakes on a high end road bike, aside from running really really big tires. But where's the profit in that, especially when people are so ready to just bend over and accept the technology that is already developed for our mountain bikes.
We used to have these things called threaded bottom brackets. They worked. They were simple. I miss them. I'd hate to see rim brake technology go that way too. It has a place, right at the top of pro level road racing. The unfortunate truth is that that place exists to promote what the manufacturers deem will reap the most profit, and that right now, is disc brakes for everyone. And that, is just business, for better or worse. Same as it ever was.