Madone is the aero king - why?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

youngs_modulus wrote:I'm confused by Noctiluxx's post...the Madone's ride is famously plush due to the Isospeed decoupler. Noxctiluxx, can you clarify what you meant?


As I stated in my previous post, the 2018 Madone was a mid level 9.5 model that came with Ultegra, aluminum cockpit, and and some Bontrager aero wheels. I was considering the Pinarello F8/10, Colnago C60, Bianchi Oltre XR4, and a yellow Project One Madone before I decided on the Oltre XR4. I tried the Madone and F-8 back to back. To my surprise, there was no comparison. The F-8 was more agile, held speed better, and just more fun to ride. The Madone was harsh (not stiff), and generally not emotionally engaging, TO ME. Obviously there are many cyclists that feel the opposite. I cut the ride short after 10 minutes to try out the F-8. As good as the F8 felt, it was no better, nor worse, than my TCR. Great bike but I decided I wanted something different. I was leaning towards a C60 but couldn't find the color, size I wanted. So I went with the Oltre XR4, even though there was non around my size to test ride. Right now I'm building up my Bianchi with DA9150 and Bora Ultra wheels. Even if the rides like shit, the pain will be lessened by just staring at its beauty.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

youngs_modulus
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by youngs_modulus

Hey...I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't understand why you thought the Madone was harsh, but I'm not impugning you for reaching that conclusion. I was just asking you to explain your reasoning. Are you saying the Isospeed decoupler didn't work very well? Or that the F8 and the Bianchi were similarly compliant at the saddle even though their designs are more conventional? I'm sincerely curious. I follow why you prefer the Pinarello and the Bianchi to the Madone regarding all its other traits...I'm just a little turned around on the harshness question.

Again, there's no right answer here. I haven't ridden any of these bikes, so I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean. I'm glad you got the Bianchi; it sounds like it really suits you.

jlok
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by jlok

Typical critical thinking will hurt many people who take things personally. Good job YM. Keep it up.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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ergott
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by ergott

Back in my college days working at a bike shop, the lead sales guy would adjust the tire pressure to give the "ride" the customer was looking for. They wanted a stiff bike? Pump up to 120psi. They wanted plush? 95psi. Easiest way to give customer what they wanted especially when it was a particular bike we did/didn't want to sell.

tranzformer
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by tranzformer

alcatraz wrote:Let people have an opinion.

Respectfully disagree.

One person's voice does not make a concensus.

Thank you for sharing! I think we would like to hear everyones experience on the matter.

/a


Noctiluxx wrote:As I stated in my previous post, the 2018 Madone was a mid level 9.5 model that came with Ultegra, aluminum cockpit, and and some Bontrager aero wheels. I was considering the Pinarello F8/10, Colnago C60, Bianchi Oltre XR4, and a yellow Project One Madone before I decided on the Oltre XR4. I tried the Madone and F-8 back to back. To my surprise, there was no comparison. The F-8 was more agile, held speed better, and just more fun to ride. The Madone was harsh (not stiff), and generally not emotionally engaging, TO ME. Obviously there are many cyclists that feel the opposite. I cut the ride short after 10 minutes to try out the F-8. As good as the F8 felt, it was no better, nor worse, than my TCR. Great bike but I decided I wanted something different. I was leaning towards a C60 but couldn't find the color, size I wanted. So I went with the Oltre XR4, even though there was non around my size to test ride. Right now I'm building up my Bianchi with DA9150 and Bora Ultra wheels. Even if the rides like shit, the pain will be lessened by just staring at its beauty.



When a review goes completely against what 'professional' reviews have stated, what owners on the forum have stated, it means you throw out the n=1 review that not only doesn't make sense, but that also goes against the grain of what the 99.9% state. Just because a .1% believe the world is flat, doesn't make the world flat. Regardless of how much 'evidence' they might point to nor how convinced they are in their opinion. Wrong is still wrong. Just because someone would come on and state the Colnago C59 or C60 are harsh riding, as stiff as a wet noodle and lacks any road feel, does not make it so when that isn't even true. Nothing points to the current Madone 9 as being harsh. Nothing points to the Madone 9 as not being a great ride. Regardless of if it is one's opinion. It is still an incorrect assessment, just like stating the world is flat. Reviews can be wrong. Even if a reviewers thinks it is just personal 'opinion.'

Noctiluxx
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Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

tranzformer wrote:
alcatraz wrote:Let people have an opinion.

Respectfully disagree.

One person's voice does not make a concensus.

Thank you for sharing! I think we would like to hear everyones experience on the matter.

/a


Noctiluxx wrote:As I stated in my previous post, the 2018 Madone was a mid level 9.5 model that came with Ultegra, aluminum cockpit, and and some Bontrager aero wheels. I was considering the Pinarello F8/10, Colnago C60, Bianchi Oltre XR4, and a yellow Project One Madone before I decided on the Oltre XR4. I tried the Madone and F-8 back to back. To my surprise, there was no comparison. The F-8 was more agile, held speed better, and just more fun to ride. The Madone was harsh (not stiff), and generally not emotionally engaging, TO ME. Obviously there are many cyclists that feel the opposite. I cut the ride short after 10 minutes to try out the F-8. As good as the F8 felt, it was no better, nor worse, than my TCR. Great bike but I decided I wanted something different. I was leaning towards a C60 but couldn't find the color, size I wanted. So I went with the Oltre XR4, even though there was non around my size to test ride. Right now I'm building up my Bianchi with DA9150 and Bora Ultra wheels. Even if the rides like shit, the pain will be lessened by just staring at its beauty.



When a review goes completely against what 'professional' reviews have stated, what owners on the forum have stated, it means you throw out the n=1 review that not only doesn't make sense, but that also goes against the grain of what the 99.9% state. Just because a .1% believe the world is flat, doesn't make the world flat. Regardless of how much 'evidence' they might point to nor how convinced they are in their opinion. Wrong is still wrong. Just because someone would come on and state the Colnago C59 or C60 are harsh riding, as stiff as a wet noodle and lacks any road feel, does not make it so when that isn't even true. Nothing points to the current Madone 9 as being harsh. Nothing points to the Madone 9 as not being a great ride. Regardless of if it is one's opinion. It is still an incorrect assessment, just like stating the world is flat. Reviews can be wrong. Even if a reviewers thinks it is just personal 'opinion.'


What a stupid analogy. Comparing my experience with your hero bike to some fringe group makes you a fringe hack. Nothing more.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

Ahillock
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by Ahillock

^ Sounds like somebody didn't really 'test' ride the Madone 9 even if they said they did. I personally thought the analogy was spot on.

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ergott
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by ergott

Wow, put down the pitchforks people! Remember we're talking about a hobby here. It's not life or death.


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Alumen
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by Alumen

Shrike wrote:
Alumen wrote:
Shrike wrote:
Alumen wrote:Is your helmet aero ? Check...
Are you sitting in an aero position ? Check...

Nice to haves:
Aero handlebar, check...
Aero & integrated calipers, check...
Aero front wheel, check...
Tyre in line with the rim, check...

Behind the vertical line of these items, there is too much turbulence for anything that is being called "aero" to be real aero. Myth debunked.

That said, I love the looks of the Madone !!!


Source for this aero threshold you’ve set a definition upon?


Too much information to mention in 9 years of sub top triathlon experience...

Just think twice and use your common sense, what happens with the air flows after that the air hits these parts ?


The same thing that happens to all other parts - varying degrees of turbulence.

I'm still wondering what the threshold is for something to become 'real aero'. What exactly does this mean.


That's a fair and interesting question indeed...

I can only speak for myself here and real to me is if it the "real aero" part/clothes/etc adds a "significant" benefit to my performance.

Also the word "significant" is of course very subjective and I think the only answer here is, is that the winner is always right... And winner could be in my opinion also a personal record etc etc.

But it has been said here before, rider + bike etc is all cumulative, so all bits are helping. Also an aero frame of course is part of that cumulative, but it won't be the big differentiator and certainly not to most of us mortals...

Did I said already that I really like the looks of the Madone :mrgreen:
CAAD 10 2015

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BeeSeeBee
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by BeeSeeBee

I don't feel like wading through another thread kgt has decided to shit up, so before you waste anymore time on him/his ilk, just know that the mods know he's a troll and don't give a shit:

Shhht, don't feed the trolls ;)

The guy is just a pain in the. better just to ignore him. he is looking to get into a digital fight. it looks like he has way to much time on his hands.

Thanks,
Frank


Quality moderation from the admins :thumbup:

And hey kgt, remember when you already tried to misrepresent the study you're linking now? It didn't work out so well last time either.

viewtopic.php?p=1221646#p1221646
viewtopic.php?p=1221691#p1221691

You're the laziest bad faith poster (with severe memory problems given how many times you forget you're rehashing the same disproven argument) I've ever come across and you make this forum worse with your contributions. :beerchug:

Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

Ahillock wrote:^ Sounds like somebody didn't really 'test' ride the Madone 9 even if they said they did. I personally thought the analogy was spot on.


Sorry I forgot to film the Madone bike test to satisfy some random dude on the internet.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

youngs_modulus
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by youngs_modulus

Noctiluxx, I'm asking nicely: what makes you say the Madone rides harshly, and what was your impression of the Isospeed decoupler?

Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

youngs_modulus wrote:Noctiluxx, I'm asking nicely: what makes you say the Madone rides harshly, and what was your impression of the Isospeed decoupler?


Lets move on man. I just didn't enjoy the ride and ended up with another bike. I don't owe an apology to anyone for my decision. That is all. Own six bikes, four different brands, including a 2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 proves I'm no fanboy of any brand. BTW, my next bike, sometime summer of 2018, will be a Colnago C60. Lets move on, please.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

tranzformer wrote:When a review goes completely against what 'professional' reviews have stated, what owners on the forum have stated, it means you throw out the n=1 review that not only doesn't make sense, but that also goes against the grain of what the 99.9% state. Just because a .1% believe the world is flat, doesn't make the world flat. Regardless of how much 'evidence' they might point to nor how convinced they are in their opinion. Wrong is still wrong. Just because someone would come on and state the Colnago C59 or C60 are harsh riding, as stiff as a wet noodle and lacks any road feel, does not make it so when that isn't even true. Nothing points to the current Madone 9 as being harsh. Nothing points to the Madone 9 as not being a great ride. Regardless of if it is one's opinion. It is still an incorrect assessment, just like stating the world is flat. Reviews can be wrong. Even if a reviewers thinks it is just personal 'opinion.'


So you're saying that a qualitative review of sensory experience, not a quantitative one, is 'wrong' when it is solely based on an individual's personal opinion and experience even after that reviewer explicitly stated that is was their own personal take on it and in no way are they claiming an authority of opinion over other people?

Do you realize how a living experience based on your proposed approach would be absolutely miserable to everyone but you?

Qualities of [X] can be assumed when there is a reliable source of quantitative data which has strong tendencies to reflect qualities of a performance variable.
But - and this is important - sensory perception of experience which is solely upon the individual at that time and place DO NOT have quantitative data.
While one person may disagree with another person's perception of experience, no matter which perspective is agreed upon by others who have also attempted to replicate the experience (which is actually an impossibility, no experience ever in the history of this universe can ever be exactly replicated for more than one being), in no way is any one person's perspective deemed invalid.

To deem another person's perspective based on their own sensory experience invalid is beyond insane. The only persons who do that are psychopaths and total narcissists (neither of which is mutually exclusive to the other).
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

beanbiken
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by beanbiken

prendrefeu wrote:So you're saying that a qualitative review of sensory experience, not a quantitative one, is 'wrong' when it is solely based on an individual's personal opinion and experience even after that reviewer explicitly stated that is was their own personal take on it and in no way are they claiming an authority of opinion over other people?

Do you realize how a living experience based on your proposed approach would be absolutely miserable to everyone but you?

Qualities of [X] can be assumed when there is a reliable source of quantitative data which has strong tendencies to reflect qualities of a performance variable.
But - and this is important - sensory perception of experience which is solely upon the individual at that time and place DO NOT have quantitative data.
While one person may disagree with another person's perception of experience, no matter which perspective is agreed upon by others who have also attempted to replicate the experience (which is actually an impossibility, no experience ever in the history of this universe can ever be exactly replicated for more than one being), in no way is any one person's perspective deemed invalid.

To deem another person's perspective based on their own sensory experience invalid is beyond insane. The only persons who do that are psychopaths and total narcissists (neither of which is mutually exclusive to the other).



:beerchug: Love it and well put. I'm just not clever enough to put it into words, full marks

BB
Ahhh, coffee & carbon

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