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Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:48 am
by youngs_modulus
Fixie82 wrote:I literally ate popcorn while reading this.

That's awesome.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:48 am
by Weenie

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:20 am
by kgt
A thread where people believe that a peer-reviewed article in a journal has more credit than a PhD thesis and someone with no relation to academia claiming he does more serious research than someone with PhD in cycling aerodynamics...

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:50 am
by basilic
youngs_modulus, it's a pleasure to read your well-argued contributions.
Unexpected on an internet board, kudos.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 pm
by pyrahna
alcatraz wrote:I think Hambini and Hexsense is right about one thing in particular and it's the handlebar frontal area. It often leaves much to be desired.

I'm looking to put a base bar on the frame I am buying and with that in mind I hope I haven't set myself up with an impossible decision trying to distinguish the madone or s5. (I'm aware a madone is basically impossible to fit other bars on. I'm simply entertaining the option).

As for aero brake calipers. My intuition tells me it's not as important as the bars. Is it worth pursuing, good question. I've found that it often adds a lot of weight. (Sure weight is not everything but I like to do a fair trade between weight and aero. Saving a couple of watts is worth a moderate increase in weight. But save half a watt for 200-300gr is pushing it.)

Changing subject to the Trek Speed Concept 9 I noticed the down tube is very slim with a completely different tube profile than the madone. The fork frontal area is quite big with a quite wide stance of the fork legs. Not like the Cervelo P5x at all.

The youtube user Ronald Kuba did some tests between his Madone 9 and Speed Concept 9 and came up with around 2.5km/h average speed difference between them at equal power. I think wheels and clothing were kept the same. Yes the difference comes a lot from the rider position but it's interesting how the "Aero king" can so easily be improved upon by relatively traditional tube shapes that seem to be on the Speed Concept 9.

Maybe an oval cross sectioned down tube is faster than a kammtail, as long as no bottles are mounted, or? Thanks for commenting.

/a


The person on top of the frame has been repeatably shown to be the predominant source of drag. Most estimates are around 85% of the system is the person on top. So an more aero position of the person trumps all that is going on in the frame. Having said that the bike can still make good gains in the overall system being faster.

Traditionally TT bikes have tested faster than road bikes in large part due to the base bar not having the tubular drops of a road bike. Replace the drops on the road bike with a base bar and aero bars if you want something close to a fair test. Keep in mind that the Madone also had different priorities and different knowledge going into the project than the speed concept did. The Madone had a greater emphasis placed on things like light weight, increased torsional stiffness, etc etc that make a better road bike but have much less importance with a TT bike.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:08 pm
by jwfinesse
kgt wrote:A thread where people believe that a peer-reviewed article in a journal has more credit than a PhD thesis


Ooooh I know I'm gonna enjoy this now.

Two words for you: SCI journals

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:43 pm
by 53x12
kgt wrote:A thread where people believe that a peer-reviewed article in a journal has more credit than a PhD thesis and someone with no relation to academia claiming he does more serious research than someone with PhD in cycling aerodynamics...


Image

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm
by justkeepedaling
kgt wrote:A thread where people believe that a peer-reviewed article in a journal has more credit than a PhD thesis and someone with no relation to academia claiming he does more serious research than someone with PhD in cycling aerodynamics...


Seriously what? Besides that weird belief, her conclusion did not discount frame aerodynamics when comparing an aero track bike to a normal track bike and was specific to a DIY aero mod that was frankly not very sophisticated. It just focused more on the bigger slice of the pie, which is reasonable FOR A PhD THESES.

As mentioned here:

"The literature has shown that the drag of bike frames and wheels has already reached a point where only
minimal gains can be made through further changes in their design. Therefore the focus of this thesis will
concentrate primarily on individual athlete position, followed by an analysis of helmets, pedals, skinsuit
design, and fabric choice."

In other words, yes, aero works, it's converged to a point where you can eek out tiny gains now. Would you like to get into the referenced literature? Because she has some excellent ones

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:03 pm
by kgt
Thanks but your arguments (as well as the arguments of those attacking me) are totally irrelevant to my posts. You may read my posts again if you like, I do not intend to follow this any more.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:00 am
by tranzformer
kgt wrote:Thanks but your arguments (as well as the arguments of those attacking me) are totally irrelevant to my posts. You may read my posts again if you like, I do not intend to follow this any more.


Thank you!!

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:30 pm
by Alumen
Is your helmet aero ? Check...
Are you sitting in an aero position ? Check...

Nice to haves:
Aero handlebar, check...
Aero & integrated calipers, check...
Aero front wheel, check...
Tyre in line with the rim, check...

Behind the vertical line of these items, there is too much turbulence for anything that is being called "aero" to be real aero. Myth debunked.

That said, I love the looks of the Madone !!!

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:58 pm
by JaniM
Madone whitepaper is interesting reading: https://trek.scene7.com/is/content/Trek ... epaper.pdf

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:48 pm
by Shrike
Alumen wrote:Is your helmet aero ? Check...
Are you sitting in an aero position ? Check...

Nice to haves:
Aero handlebar, check...
Aero & integrated calipers, check...
Aero front wheel, check...
Tyre in line with the rim, check...

Behind the vertical line of these items, there is too much turbulence for anything that is being called "aero" to be real aero. Myth debunked.

That said, I love the looks of the Madone !!!


Source for this aero threshold you’ve set a definition upon?

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:01 pm
by youngs_modulus
JaniM wrote:Madone whitepaper is interesting reading: https://trek.scene7.com/is/content/Trek ... epaper.pdf

It is indeed. I’m a simulation guy, and I’ve spent more time than I care to admit creating documents like this and reviewing ones created by others. I’ve seen much, much worse.

For a publicly-released document, that white paper is really comprehensive. It’s also exceedingly well-written. I imagine Trek’s copywriters has a hand in tweaking the language (many engineers can’t write their way out of a paper bag) but the Madone white paper is well-written and clear without sacrificing technical content.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:45 pm
by Alumen
Shrike wrote:
Alumen wrote:Is your helmet aero ? Check...
Are you sitting in an aero position ? Check...

Nice to haves:
Aero handlebar, check...
Aero & integrated calipers, check...
Aero front wheel, check...
Tyre in line with the rim, check...

Behind the vertical line of these items, there is too much turbulence for anything that is being called "aero" to be real aero. Myth debunked.

That said, I love the looks of the Madone !!!


Source for this aero threshold you’ve set a definition upon?


Too much information to mention in 9 years of sub top triathlon experience...

Just think twice and use your common sense, what happens with the air flows after that the air hits these parts ?

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:06 pm
by Calnago
I think Trek is a great company. But “whitepapers” come in several flavors. Purely technical, which the engineers will take to study the goods and bads objectively stated, then the purely marketing which is laughable to all except the most gullible, then a combo of the two (with a heavier weight on the marketing side). The latter is what the public is generally privy too. Enough technical stuff with the right spin to make it possibly believable to even some of the less gullible while at the same time ensuring that there is no doubt left why this company’s product is best of the bunch.
I think you need to look no further than the Executive Summary to know what the ultimate goal of this white paper is and on which side of the technical/marketing side it straddles. No surprises here.

Re: Madone is the aero king - why?

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:06 pm
by Weenie