Carbon fiber spokes + Alloy Rim = DISASTER(for MAVIC users)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
ohhyeok90
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:24 am

by ohhyeok90

Antoine wrote:I was thinking South Korea is pretty new in cycling (at least with road bikes) and people may be unaware that light frames,components and wheels can be easily damaged unlike heavy city bikes. And never have experienced broken spokes, bend rims, scratched paint, broken seatpost, ... .
While lying on the floor a bike can be damaged by a passing car or anybody walking around, so why do that when there is a wall or something nearby ?
Because you don't care or you are overconfident of the overall strongness of the materials. And therefore you can do things wrong like over tightening bolts.


There is underestimating tone on your mention as far as I feel.
but I understand. I do not know that metro of paris smells piss, until my friend who traveled france told me to.

so here is some info for you about cycling in Korea.

There have been cycle competition in Korea since early 1900's, and one of the most famous athlete is 'Um bok-dong', he had won the competition over japanese.
https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%97%84 ... 5%EB%8F%99
He rides Rudge-Whitworth from UK
Image

besides road cycle race, Keirin is popular sports ever since and many people rides cycle as leisure.

during '70 to '90, MTB is more popular in Korea but trend changes to cycle again in recent 10 to 20 years.
it means we are not 'pretty new in cycling'.
we've seen Lance Armstrong won Tour riding alloy bike.
there are lots of people buying first gen of carbon bike in Korea and so many cycling fans buy high-end bike nowadays.
you can see here.
http://corearoadbike.com/board/board.ph ... Menu02Top1

almost every Korean user of carbon bike have knowledge that bike should assembled with exact torque level and many of them bought torque key(wrenches) on their own.
actually, I do have one also.

plus in my experience, lying down bike on the ground because so windy at top of hills, so there is chance to fall off by wind. nobody thinks it is okay someone steped on their bike.(at least in Korea, but France? maybe... I don't know)

by Weenie


Antoine
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: France

by Antoine

RTW wrote:
Antoine wrote:---


Keep digging. Are you basing this on anything, or just prejudice?

Have you ever been to Korea?

I know you probably don't mean to be insulting, and you are just questioning the general treatment of these bicycles which lead to this incident. But it is conjecture, based on photographs. It just comes across as racism.


I really don't see anything insulting, I'm just saying that people relatively new in cycling can make mistakes , beeing Korean or not.
And I'm assuming road cycling in South Korea is not as common as it is in France , Belgium and Italy.
I'm assuming too that an expensive bike must not be lying on the ground, usually people I see doing that don't take much care of their bike.

I haven't been in Korea but if you want to know I spend one year in Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapor,Thailand, Nepal , Hong-Kong then one month in Japan). But it has nothing to do with the matter and your racist comment is just ridiculous.

Antoine
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: France

by Antoine

joejack951 wrote:
Antoine wrote:are you sure about that, Aluminium frames can be damaged by the heat


The aging process of the -T6 heat treatment for 6061 is done at 325°F (160°C) or above. If you aren't exceeding those temperatures, you aren't compromising the metal. Welding produces very high temperatures and that can certainly affect the metal, but we're talking temperatures nearly an order of magnitude higher than the aging temperature.


The heat treatment is done once, after that it's another matter no ?
I will look at the user manual of my CAAD 9, if I'm not mistaking there mentioned not to live the bike inside a car in the heat.

Antoine
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: France

by Antoine

ohhyeok90 wrote:
Antoine wrote:---.


There is underestimating tone on your mention as far as I feel.
but I understand. I do not know that metro of paris smells piss, until my friend who traveled france told me to.

Absolutely not, I'm just trying to find an explanation of this incident who seems really odd and unknown,

Paris and it's suburbs are worst than you think, I can tell you I live there.
And I don't like Mavic wheels, I own 4 pairs of wheel, none is Mavic.

mattr
Posts: 4475
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Antoine wrote:The heat treatment is done once, after that it's another matter no ?
No, it's not another matter. You'd need to go pretty much up to heat treatment temps to start having any effects on the properties of the metal.

Antoine wrote:I will look at the user manual of my CAAD 9, if I'm not mistaking there mentioned not to live the bike inside a car in the heat.
That'll be more to do with over inflated tyres and softening of rubbers/fabrics and blowouts. (You can get to ~80 degrees in a car in direct sun. Probably enough to soften tyres noticeably and increase the tyre pressure by around 20-25%. Leading to a blow out, or worst case, damaging the tyre so it blows out later, when you are riding it.)

antonioiglesius
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:08 pm

by antonioiglesius

I see that the bikes lying on the ground are on their non-drivetrain side, that says to me the riders know what they're doing. Here in the US I see people doing that too, sometimes it's just convenient, like when the bike stand is full.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

ohhyeok90 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:44 pm
Antoine wrote: I was thinking South Korea is pretty new in cycling (at least with road bikes) and people may be unaware that light frames,components and wheels can be easily damaged unlike heavy city bikes. And never have experienced broken spokes, bend rims, scratched paint, broken seatpost, ... .
While lying on the floor a bike can be damaged by a passing car or anybody walking around, so why do that when there is a wall or something nearby ?
Because you don't care or you are overconfident of the overall strongness of the materials. And therefore you can do things wrong like over tightening bolts.
There is underestimating tone on your mention as far as I feel.
but I understand. I do not know that metro of paris smells piss, until my friend who traveled france told me to.

so here is some info for you about cycling in Korea.

There have been cycle competition in Korea since early 1900's, and one of the most famous athlete is 'Um bok-dong', he had won the competition over japanese.
https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%97%84 ... 5%EB%8F%99
He rides Rudge-Whitworth from UK
Image

besides road cycle race, Keirin is popular sports ever since and many people rides cycle as leisure.

during '70 to '90, MTB is more popular in Korea but trend changes to cycle again in recent 10 to 20 years.
it means we are not 'pretty new in cycling'.
we've seen Lance Armstrong won Tour riding alloy bike.
there are lots of people buying first gen of carbon bike in Korea and so many cycling fans buy high-end bike nowadays.
you can see here.
http://corearoadbike.com/board/board.ph ... Menu02Top1
I don't know how I stumbled upon this thread, but I couldn't disagree more.

Korea has seen somewhat of a surge in road cycling popularity in the past 8 years or so, but it's still very new and inexperienced. Just some examples:

1) Most mechanics still don't know how to work on campagnolo parts! It's shocking I know, but I can name 5 major shops in Seoul alone that refuse to work on campagnolo. Another shop that claimed to be familiar with campy ended up installing the cable routing on the FD incorrectly causing a chain slip and significant damage to a very nice carbon frame! I should have checked their work but wow!

2) Most riders start off with an Ultegra level bike (105/Sora are looked down upon as being "entry level garbage"), and within a year, will upgrade to a Dura level bike, and then quit after 3 years! It's comical seeing this cycle. I can count on one hand the number of riders I know who have been riding for over 10 years.

3) You still have morons riding on crowded bike paths with no sense of road manners or safety. Random u-turns, sharp turns without signalling, changing lanes without checking over their shoulder, abruptly stopping with no apparent warning, texting while cycling, etc. I don't know if this is a Korean thing, but I've never seen so many accidents on bike paths among cyclists. One of my friends had his brand new Parlee frame wrecked going 10mph in a slow zone because some idiot in front of him suddenly did a uturn causing a collision.

4) Piss poor diet and nutrition. It is shocking how many cyclists with $10K bikes will stop and eat the most unhealthy food imaginable after a ride. I am talking just straight junk, like fried chicken, fried ramen noodles. They also stop to eat ice cream (not the real kind, but the fake frozen sugar bomb kind) during the middle of a ride! And then they'll crawl up easy climbs at literally 5mph on their $10K bikes while taking pictures of each other. Worst part is, so many cyclists smoke cigarettes! They'll stop every 10 miles to smoke it's shocking.

5) Crazy instagram scene. There are so many riders out there who carry DSLRs, and they are actively taking pictures or video while they are riding on roads with car traffic! Fine if it's an isolated bike path with few people (they also do that on pedestrian rodes) but on cars with roads? AT NIGHT? It is mind-bogglingly dangerous, but they do it.

6) The consumerism seems to dominate the act of actually riding. The standard uniform these days seems to be Rapha/Pas Normal, 100% or similar level goggles, the latest Abus or Kask helmet and of course, the flashiest bike they can extend their debt-load to afford (you see people with gear far more expensive than their cars!). And these same people will ride less than 5,000 miles in a year (in many cases, less than 1,000 miles), but take enough pictures in a single season to last 10 years.

7) They love talking about gear, but I don't know a single rider who has ridden on downtube shifters, and very few would know how to remove a crank arm or a chain. Guys show up to rides with improperly inflated tires, don't know how to repair flats, gear is all jacked up or improperly maintained (loose bolts, poor chain tension, etc.). And that corearidebike (Dossa) he posted? Talk about a gathering of scam artists and outright nasty people. The number of scams, cheaters and liars on the used market ("wheels ridden only 1,000KM" when in reality it's more like 5,000 and has been in a crash!) is scary. You see listings of items that are claimed to be in great condition, but a trained eye can tell have been poorly maintained and really abused and used. I used to buy used on eBay in the US all the time because at least you can check the user ratings, but I only buy new here since anyone can list items at anytime.

Now there are a few hardcore "oldies" who really do know their stuff. But on a whole, the factors above are indicative of a culture that is still new and "enamored" with the "idea" of cycling, as opposed to the actual act of cycling or any history or tradition surrounding it. And you have this vicious turnover of cyclists who come and go, usually in a 3 year time frame. But that's about how long "gear" alone can maintain your interest in a physically demanding sport.

This does tie into the fact that until recently, Korea was not really that interested in exercise to begin with. Korea's culture (much like Japan) is very work/school oriented, and sports have been the realm of those who "Gave up" on school. Unlike other countries, students are discouraged from engaging in physical sports during the school year so they can focus on studying. And of course with the heavy work and after-work drinking culture (which is thankfully going away it seems), the last 10 years is really the first time in Korean history where outdoor sports has really taken off in a big way (I don't count fishing, camping or hiking to be sports). You see the same boom in running.

But of course the air pollution is driving many cyclists away, so we'll see if this momentum can sustain itself. There have been a disturbing number of LBS closures and bike sales are generally down across the board, so fingers crossed.
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filip00
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Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:30 pm
Location: slovenia

by filip00

Very interesting discussion going on here. I'd like to put in my 2 cents regarding the whole-nation-being-ignorant-about-cycling-but-cycling-for-a-long-while. So for example, in Croatia, first cycling clubs were formed in the late nineteenth century, just as regular bikes (2 same-sized wheels) happen to pop-up everywhere. Following that, one would easily conclude that Croatians have a long history of cycling knowledge...but no. They have average, at best. The average person thinks he needs a mountainbike, regardless of where he'll ride, and that he'll do 95% of rides on asphalt. Cycling lanes, tracks and infrastructure in general, is very poor. Services are often done by personell who are very skilled with steel frames, old school groupsets, and often have little knowledge about carbon bikes and new groupsets. Riders are mostly OK, but rarely is there a club ride where I don't see someone cross-chaining.
What I'm trying to get at is, there's no real correlation between a nation having bicycles for a long time, and a nation knowing how to operate those bicycles. The correlation could probably be found elsewhere, like in the infrastructure, the number of cyclists, bike shops, tours won, etc. Or there may not even be a correlation. In any case, it's silly to think that a history of having bicycles available - means that a nation is good or not good at cycling. There are probably other hidden factors.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

filip00 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:02 pm
Very interesting discussion going on here. I'd like to put in my 2 cents regarding the whole-nation-being-ignorant-about-cycling-but-cycling-for-a-long-while. So for example, in Croatia, first cycling clubs were formed in the late nineteenth century, just as regular bikes (2 same-sized wheels) happen to pop-up everywhere. Following that, one would easily conclude that Croatians have a long history of cycling knowledge...but no. They have average, at best. The average person thinks he needs a mountainbike, regardless of where he'll ride, and that he'll do 95% of rides on asphalt. Cycling lanes, tracks and infrastructure in general, is very poor. Services are often done by personell who are very skilled with steel frames, old school groupsets, and often have little knowledge about carbon bikes and new groupsets. Riders are mostly OK, but rarely is there a club ride where I don't see someone cross-chaining.
What I'm trying to get at is, there's no real correlation between a nation having bicycles for a long time, and a nation knowing how to operate those bicycles. The correlation could probably be found elsewhere, like in the infrastructure, the number of cyclists, bike shops, tours won, etc. Or there may not even be a correlation. In any case, it's silly to think that a history of having bicycles available - means that a nation is good or not good at cycling. There are probably other hidden factors.
I would be willing to bet any of my bikes that less than 1% of cyclists in Korea know what cross-chaining is, let alone why it is bad :D On popular climbs out here, you hear so much grinding of derailers as poor shifts are made under load (again, I bet less than 1% even know why this is bad!). And of course when they "upgrade", they'll sell those parts as "barely used in new condition!".

Problem is, and I think this probably also applies to Croatia, when a "new" sport becomes popular in a non-first world country, the early adopters tend to be the affluent. Once it becomes more accessible, the "masses" then seek to do that activity because it is viewed as the leisure activity of the "affluent." Unfortunately, I think the same mentality is cause for the high number of counterfeit goods are sold in Korea (appearances). You see the same thing with the boom of golfing in Asia. But the problem is, the "affluent" don't really build any infrastructure because they are small in number and they don't really care to build anything - they simply want to consume and enjoy. So when ordinary people begin this activity, they inherit an incomplete infrastructure, with little human capital or accumulated knowledge, so a lot of it is "figure it out as you go." Doesn't help that most technical information about a sport like cycling is in English, French or Italian, and most Koreans anyway are not able to read technical English, let alone French or Italian (especially not those who invested in sports early on, since they were the ones society "drove away" from education to focus on sports instead). So you have a lot of "figure it out as you go" and a lot of BS information floating around.

Probably also explains the obsession with gear and instagramming (status signaling really). My guess - if there was no social media, the number of riders in Korea would drastically drop. You rarely see people cycling "alone", and especailly not in bad weather. Really shows where people's priority lies.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy SR / Chorus 11spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

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