Is 2018 the year proper race bikes with discs gain momentum?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
MoPho
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by MoPho

spdntrxi wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:28 pm


again you are assuming you know how everyone else "feels" maybe I have something wrong with my nerves in my hands... I dont find them all that sensitive. My legs on the other hand no pun intended.

I have nothing against discs... just waiting for things to get sorted out a little more. My next bike will probably be disc
Not assuming, it's fact that your fingers have a denser concentration of sensory receptors (more than 3000 per finger) so that we can determine pressure, it's the whole reason we can tell how much force is needed to pick up things, etc. and hense why it makes more logical sense (pun) that one can determine small differences in brake modulation through the lever than noticing a mere 400g or so difference in weight through the pedals. If the nerves in your hands are damaged, than that is your problem and doesn't change the fact that people in general can better determine differences in brake modulation or feel.



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mag
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by mag

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:50 pm
...
Do I need to go on or do we need to keep making shit up?

The few disc rims that aren’t lighter from the lazier manufacturers simply weigh the same as their rim-brake counterparts because they’re the same exact rims with different surface dressings.
The lighter ones aren't a majority yet, only the newest models become finally lighter but it isn't by much - not to outweigh the total weight gain of the built wheel which is what really matters. When I was looking for some about a year ago, the situation was even worse and it hasn't improved much since then. The selection is still limited (and speaking of racing bikes, those guys racing them don't usually have such a free choice in this regard) and still, some of those rims which are claimed to be ligher actually aren't (or just by a tiny amount) if you weigh them. I am still not satisfied with what's currently available. But it's slowly improving.

What's more important though - the wheelset is in most cases still heavier and if we're talking about race bikes you need to take one more thing into the consideration: those guys use mostly tubulars. And since you proposed a switch to tubeless as one of mitigations of the current DB wheel change issues, the total weight gain would be actually more than those usual 50-80g (for medium depths) between rim brake and disc brake wheelsets. It would be somewhere close to 200g (there are some exceptions such as Enves, but they're a minority for now).

Still, that difference below 80g in the case of clinchers isn't that big deal, but since this is WW.. The 6.8kg limit comes in handy now (while in the past there was push especially from Trek to drop it).
LiquidCooled wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:09 pm
It's amusing reading when folks cite what the pros use as proof of superiority. In 5 years, when the entire peloton is on discs, will they claim:

a) Discs brakes are indeed superior, or

b) Who cares what the pros use? There may be many reasons why the pros ride the brakes they do other than those brakes being the superior tech.

Which will be the path of their hypocrisy?
I like many aspects of disc brakes, but they aren't universally better as some try to claim (or they at least play down their cons as if they don't matter).
When looking at the current situation one can't avoid some thoughts about a forced introduction of disc brakes into the pro peloton.

by Weenie


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Miller
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by Miller

I wonder if the pro peloton might need to jump to discs en masse rather than gradually. They'll want an even playing field in terms of wheel changes and early disc adopters in the pro ranks might feel at a disadvantage from that aspect. It's pointless using pros as a reference for amateur sport cycling in any case: dunno about you but I don't ride around on tubs with a team car following behind.

MoPho
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by MoPho

C36 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:46 pm
You are playing dumb here, we talk on relative not absolute. disc brakes compared with rim brakes have disadvantages on the flat, on the way up and only represent benefits (over rim brakes, in case you got lost) certain conditions on the way down (need high-deceleration or long technical descents or some bad weather conditions).
No I won't take rim brakes all the time, I don't recall making this claim: few messages above a couple was looking for a bike that will give them more confidence in descents, not for performance but for confort and safety.

First off, learn how to quote properly so your posts are readable

Rim brakes compared to no brakes have the same disadvantages, it's all relative not absolute, ask a fixie rider :roll:

I've been riding discs for over a year and a half and 10k miles of group rides, solo, climbing and lots of fast aggressive descending, so lets have a look at the reality of these disadvantages:

Maintenance: Have not had to do anything besides changing brake pads (which is easier than changing rim brake pads) and the same kind of occasional cleaning with a q-tip I had to do with rim brakes. Haven't had to do a bleed but I've done it before on my MTB and it is no more difficult than changing brake cables (which on my old TCR I had to do several times a year cause it would eat housings). If you can't do a brake bleed, you're incapable of a brake cable change either. It is a little trickier to get the brakes centered perfectly because of the tight tolerances, but certainly not a deal breaker. - 404 Disadvantage Not Found

Weight: sure, it adds a little weight, my TCR is about 400g heavier than my friends nearly identical rim brake TCR. Despite this I've beat nearly every climbing PR I did on rim brakes. And show me where someone has lost a race because of 400g and disc brake bikes have already been built to below the race minimum weight... - 404 Disadvantage Not Found

Aero: You can claim the aero disadvantage based on wind tunnel tests all you want but we don't ride in a wind tunnel, you are constantly changing direction, riding in groups, etc.. Your body posisition is the biggest factor here. But even with this miniscule aero disadvantage you are so worried about it hasn't caused me to get dropped from group rides or stopped me from taking pulls at the front and even riding folks off my wheel. - 404 Disadvantage Not Found

Wheel changes: I can swap between wheels with no issues, no rub, it's super easy and way better than when I had to swap rim brake wheels that require pad changes and brake adjustments. I know some people have had disc alignment issues but they make spacers to adjust that. As far as changing flats, front wheel is easier, no lawyer tabs to deal with, back wheel is a little trickier, but not a big deal and since I am not pro racing it doesn't matter. If you get a flat as an amatuer racer, you're pretty much done anyway - very slight disadvantage found

Noise: I have had an occasional squeal here and there, but had the same issue with rim brakes. Fixable on both - 404 Disadvantage Not Found

Handling: Can't tell any difference - 404 Disadvantage Not Found

Like many naysayers, you greatly exaggerate these "disadvantages"



Is this for real? Did you just say "well yes disc brakes frames may have worse dynamic properties than their equivalent rim brakes, but unless you compare you won't see the difference then who cares".
"Bikes are never the same" well read again what I mentioned the bikes compared were the same and when two engineers from two brands tell you "the disc brake frame is not as reactive as the rim brake" I think it is clear.
"This is not the main point" well the same bike with different brake system behave differently is kind of the main point at the moment of picking a bike that will spend 99% of the time doing something else than braking.
Now I get your point, pick the first bike you see and go have fun don't think more since you don't care how different bikes behave.
I will give you the benifit of the doubt but please post these comments from the engineers...
And how much difference is this behavior and how is it actually a disadvantage? How will it ruin your experience?
I can use the same argument you make above that it only matters when you are ripping around corners under certain conditions and you will be spending 99% of your time doing something else other than cornering under these conditions :roll:
It is called optimisation, just more than 100 years than Engineers try to make bikes faster.
Wait, are they trying to make bikes faster and better or just trying to sell you stuff? Can't have it both ways. :noidea:
And BTW, average speeds at the major bike races haven't really increased much over the past 30 years, and most of it can be attributed to doping and training methods not bike technology.




Do you have a road bike rather or a touring bike? Do you have 25-28 tires or 32-38? Why have you made some choices that bring more performance and suddenly for a less reactive frame and heavier, less aero setup it suddenly doesn't matter?
I used to think I needed to buy based on performance reasons, but have since learned that it really makes little difference, you are either strong or your not (or you are trying to get strong). I've seen guys on $1500 touring bikes smoke guys on $15k race bikes, it's not the bike. The vast majority of cyclists aren't riding super expensive lightweight/aero machines and it is not stopping any of them from going out on group rides and keeping right up or doing whatever kind of riding they enjoy
I've posted about it before, but there is a guy in LA that gives many a strong rider up the climbs a hard time on his box store Raleigh crusier that probably weighs over 30lbs, there is even video of him chaising down the 2-time winner of the Velo Le Mans 24hr race up a climb. Disadvantages from disc brakes my ass :roll:

Image

https://pvcycling.files.wordpress.com/2 ... _ketih.jpg


I get that it is fun to measurebate all the specs and such, but stop acting like any of this stuff really matters in the long run, we're all out to just have fun on our bikes. :thumbup:


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Last edited by MoPho on Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RyanH
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by RyanH

I think this thread has run its course and should be locked. The purpose of this thread was whether or not race disc will be gaining momentum this year, and I don't think anyone disagrees that we'll see a lot more race disc bikes this year than before.

If you'd like to share your feedback on having discs, please do so in a thread I started a few months back regarding living with discs:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=149024

The other premise of this thread was how many of us are sitting here wondering if it's worth selling off our current gear for disc. Unlike Di2 though, this requires a much greater commitment (financial) and thus the hesitance by many of us as to whether or not we'll benefit from it. Not many of us are in the situation of starting off with a blank slate. That aspect of the conversation hasn't progressed much. Apparently, according to the most vocal in this thread, the premise of this site (WeightWeenies) is pointless and we should abandon our pursuit of lightness for the holy grail of braking. We get it, it's fine that 400-600g doesn't mean much to you, but to hammer on and on about your perceived insignificance of that weight penalty goes in stark contrast to what this site is about.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Best idea of the year RyanH. But please be sure to specify that “living with” means thousands of miles and hundreds of hours of use before you can qualify to post anything. :)
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MoPho
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by MoPho

RyanH wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:49 pm

I, and others, are interested in that feedback because I'm sure many of us are sitting here wondering if it's worth selling off our current gear for disc. Unlike Di2 though, this requires a much greater commitment (financial) and thus the hesitance by many of us as to whether or not we'll benefit from it. Not many of us are in the situation of starting off with a blank slate.
And this is what it really all boils down to, the naysayers are afraid to admit that they are rationalizing because they don't want to sell off all their existing gear and take the loss and no one is suggesting you should. Rim brakes are obviously more than good enough, disc is an incremental improvement and I wouldn't tell anyone to sell their stuff and rush out and buy a disc. If you are buying a whole new bike anyway, I would recommend it.



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Calnago
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by Calnago

@MoPho... aka PeeWee Herman, master of the “I know you are but what am I” rebuttal. Please take it all over to the thread filled with people “living with” disc brakes. You’ll be much much happier over there.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

MoPho
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by MoPho

Calnago wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:03 pm
@MoPho... aka PeeWee Herman, master of the “I know you are but what am I” rebuttal. Please take it all over to the thread filled with people “living with” disc brakes. You’ll be much much happier over there.
Uh, oh, think it's time to change your diaper again...

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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

in before the lock !

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Hahahahah. I always wanted a wide in a whambulance... ever since I was a wee wittle boy.
Oh, but once again, great rebuttal PeeWee.
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Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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