Is 2018 the year proper race bikes with discs gain momentum?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Locked
lewolive
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:10 pm
Location: Gien, France
Contact:

by lewolive

Hi,

I just want to bring my contribution, because as of today there are influencers on both sides and the reality is not black or white, it's grey.
So, I have been working on a little easy chart to show where the advantages of each technology are.

2018 market is the following:
-rim and disc bikes are available from almost all manufacturers
-on a $6000 road bike there is still a penalty of 1kg for disc bikes and a comparable groupset/bike would cost an extra $500-$1000
-Customers buy the products with the best ratio quality/price/convenience : if we compare tires and tubulars, the tire is better despite a 200g penalty over the tubular, but it' a lot more convenient to train with tires, and the rolling resistance is considered as better than tubular. Will customers be ready to pay more for an heavier bike that is in reality better only x% of the time ?
Attachments
disc.jpg
Rim or Disc road bike ?

by Weenie


Marin
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

lewolive wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 pm
Customers buy the products with the best ratio quality/price/convenience
This simply isn' true, customers & markets are highly irrational.

zefs
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

It's really worthless to try to argue about a topic like rim brakes vs disc brakes simply because each has advantages and disadvantages based on your riding conditions so like on most things on cycling you go with what you need, based on the facts and not marketing confusion.

Rim brake bike:
+ lighter
+ less maintenance
- rim wear
- less braking power depending on conditions

Disc brake bike:
+ better braking power (if hydraulic) in all conditions
+ rims last longer (no breaking surface)
- more maintenance
- heavier
- brake pads don't last as long
- more expensive (initially and for maintenance)

Considering we are talking about people who have knowledge in cycling and have training plans etc. the choice is really easy to make since only you know what type of riding you will be doing.

To get a top racing disc brake bike will be more expensive for no apparent reason so the companies can make more money and that's where the marketing comes along.

lewolive
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:10 pm
Location: Gien, France
Contact:

by lewolive

Marin wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:14 am
lewolive wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 pm
Customers buy the products with the best ratio quality/price/convenience
This simply isn' true, customers & markets are highly irrational.
Honnestly, just ride in France and you'll discover that we have let's say, 50000 riders that are very rational in their choices in terms of cycling equipment. These people are experts in cycling, they know a lot of things, including the manufacturers "game" to sell them products that they don't need. So, it'll be very hard to sell them disc brakes if the technology is not better than rim brakes in 90% of the rides.
However, that's true that we have also a mass market will less educated riders, who will be more sensitive to safety and low maintenance. This is with this people that disc brakes will grow up on our market.

tomatoe
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:23 pm

by tomatoe

zefs wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:34 am
It's really worthless to try to argue about a topic like rim brakes vs disc brakes simply because each has advantages and disadvantages based on your riding conditions so like on most things on cycling you go with what you need, based on the facts and not marketing confusion.

Rim brake bike:
+ lighter
+ less maintenance
- rim wear
- less braking power depending on conditions

Disc brake bike:
+ better braking power (if hydraulic) in all conditions
+ rims last longer (no breaking surface)
- more maintenance
- heavier
- brake pads don't last as long
- more expensive (initially and for maintenance)

Considering we are talking about people who have knowledge in cycling and have training plans etc. the choice is really easy to make since only you know what type of riding you will be doing.

To get a top racing disc brake bike will be more expensive for no apparent reason so the companies can make more money and that's where the marketing comes along.
False.

Disc brake pads last many times longer
Disc brake pads does not collect stone and metal fragments
Disc brakes require alot less maintenance
Disc brakes don't overheat the resin in carbon rims and ruin them.
Disc brakes brings more freedom to rim desing -> superior rims.
Seatstays can be designed around comfort, not braking forces.

cunn1n9
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

From where I sit virtually all disc brake riders are either
- timid old guys
- newbies who have no experience

Do not find quality experienced riders in discs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

tomatoe wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:52 pm

False.

Disc brake pads last many times longer
Indeed. I'm fairly certain I will only have to replace the semi-metallic pads on my front calipers after 3500 mountainous miles. Rim-brake carbon clinchers with carbon brake tracks are paired with softer pads than what's typically used for alloy rims. Rim-brake carbon clinchers now feature heavily textured braking surfaces. I very much doubt the stock ENVE pads would last those same 3500mi.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 6614
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 pm
tomatoe wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:52 pm

False.

Disc brake pads last many times longer
Rim-brake carbon clinchers with carbon brake tracks are paired with softer pads than what's typically used for alloy rims.
I can only surmise you don't have much (as in any) experience with Campy red pads for carbon rims. They are most certainly harder than their alloy rim brake counterparts.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
themidge
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:19 pm
Location: yer ma

by themidge

cunn1n9 wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:03 pm
From where I sit virtually all disc brake riders are either
- timid old guys
- newbies who have no experience

Do not find quality experienced riders in discs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1
If you're heavy enough to need disk brakes, ride more until you don't need them any more.
The industry is definitely pushing disk brakes (and 1x, but we won't go into that) in a very unhealthy manner. It seems that manufacturers don't care about serving everyone, only the majority. Is it really so difficult for disk and rim brakes to co-exist?

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

zefs wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:34 am
It's really worthless to try to argue about a topic like rim brakes vs disc brakes simply because each has advantages and disadvantages based on your riding conditions so like on most things on cycling you go with what you need, based on the facts and not marketing confusion.

Rim brake bike:
+ lighter
+ less maintenance
- rim wear
- less braking power depending on conditions

Disc brake bike:
+ better braking power (if hydraulic) in all conditions
+ rims last longer (no breaking surface)
- more maintenance
- heavier
- brake pads don't last as long
- more expensive (initially and for maintenance)

Considering we are talking about people who have knowledge in cycling and have training plans etc. the choice is really easy to make since only you know what type of riding you will be doing.

To get a top racing disc brake bike will be more expensive for no apparent reason so the companies can make more money and that's where the marketing comes along.
You really said it well..especially the marketing behind disc brakes based upon bike makers pursuit of higher profit.

mattsurf
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:26 pm

by mattsurf

cunn1n9 wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:03 pm
From where I sit virtually all disc brake riders are either
- timid old guys
- newbies who have no experience

Do not find quality experienced riders in discs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am certainly not a timid old guy
I am not a newby, I have many years experience

I race Time Trials, and am a very successful Triathlete, I cycle the 112 miles ironman leg in around 5 hours.

My decision to switch to discs, when I upgraded my road bike was an entirely rational decision. More and more riders at my local club, inlcuding a former pro, are deciding to go for disc brakes when they upgrade

Bordcla
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

Ruined a pair of expensive alloy clinchers (Dura-Ace C24) in a single mountainous fondo where rain and sandy roads completely destroyed the brake track despite several stops to wipe rim and pads.

Made me realise that unless you're not paying for them (you're a pro getting free equipment) riding expensive rim brake wheels in any conditions other than perfect makes no sense unless you never have to brake.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Calnago wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 pm

I can only surmise you don't have much (as in any) experience with Campy red pads for carbon rims. They are most certainly harder than their alloy rim brake counterparts.
They are an exception then. Carbon rim surfaces are more flexible than alloy ones. They soften up more as heat builds up too. The carbon-specific pads from other brands definitely use softer materials than standard pads to lower the psi at the contact area and prevent delamination.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 6614
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ah... Carbon rim surfaces are much harder than alloy surfaces. With overheating, it is possible to soften the resins for sure, hence the issues with carbon clinchers. But on balance, I've yet to see someone actually wear out a carbon rim in the same way that alloy wears out. Simply because it's much harder. I posed the question once on this forum asking for examples from people who had actually worn out their carbon rims from normal braking. Very few examples were presented. I'll pose it again... if anyone has just simply worn out a set of carbon rims from normal braking (not including the extreme delamination examples from overheating), then feel free to explain the circumstances and how long it took, and whether you feel carbon rims last longer or shorter than alloy rims. The poster above (@Bordcia) seems to have worn out some alloy rims in extreme weather and sandy conditions. Fair enough. But there are very few wet "sandy" roads I encounter on a road bike. But yes, i could see it happening, just as disc pads can need replacing after one lap in a nasty cycolcross race. The only carbon rim specific pads that I'm aware of which are definitely on the softer side are the blue Reynolds pads. Other than that... I can't think of any that you might be referring to. Lightweight branded? I don't think so. I don't know... I've dealt with a fair number, but the blue Reynolds cryo pads are really the only ones that come to mind as being very soft, meaning softer than the typical rubber pads for alloy rims. So, care to name some of those other super soft pads specifcially?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Harder is a matter of semantics, the brake surface can be harder as in more resistant to abrasion, but the composite structure is prone to deflection at high psi.

Also I’m not sure why wearing out carbon clinchers under “normal braking” is the standard when plenty of people climb mountains and need to brake aggressively before technical cornering on descents. Here are dvq’s (a communifty member) old ENVE SES 6.7s. They were 3.5 years old with 26000 mountainous miles on them.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSNHKIZF-wR/

As for which pads are softer? The old KoolStop made Zipp pads, the new SwissStop made Zipp pads, SwissStop Black Prince, any cork pad, others I’m sure.

by Weenie


Locked
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post