Tubular vs Tubeless?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
JimV
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:57 pm
Location: Chicago

by JimV

Thinking of going back to tubular's for all of my wheels after 20+ years. Anyone else out there not impressed with tubeless?

Ever since Vittoria first came out with there "Open tires" I switched. Spending $$$$ for race only wheels never sounded like a good idea. The "opens" rode like tubulars and I could ride them all of the time. Vittoria, Challenge or Veloflex all ride great. I now have two sets of tubeless wheels for the gravel bike and am not impressed. Zipp 30's with Vittoria cross tires and Zipp 303's with Hutchinson's 28mm road. The idea of changing a un-sealable flat in the cold on either wheel is not something I would like. I train on Vittoria Pave 27 most of the year and switch to Panaracer gravel kings for January and February, Chi-town.

If you are going to use sealant as flat fix what is the difference if you are riding tubeless or tubulars. I have heard from many people about how good the new tapes are, Effetto Mariposa Crogna. And if I am going to carry around a sealant reflation can, why not go with the lighter wheel package.

Not interested in cost. Not doing Dirty Kanza kind of adventure racing.

All but one of the flats I have had this year and for the past several years would have been fixed by sealant, going by the claims.

Yes, I could ride Gravel kings or some other crap riding tire and never have a ride ending with a phone call tire failure.

Intelligent thoughts

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1516
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The only time I've gotten an unsealable, unrepairable flat with tubelss is when I ran over a huge screw...like 5-6mm wide. It perforated the top of the tire, gouged my tire bed and exited the tire sidewall.

Just my opinion, but tubeless really is "all that." I carry tiny mini-pump and a DynaPlug Racer for difficult punctures. I haven't had to use it yet. The vast majority of my tubeless punctures occur without me realizing until after my ride. Almost all tubeless issues I've come across end up being user error or poor product choices. Stan's SUCKS for road pressures. Orange Seal is simply the best all-around sealant. It lasts longer before drying, isn't as messy, and seals better. Some tires seal better than others. As good as my Schwalbe Pro Ones have been, their lack of a butyl inner liner makes them puncture prone. They still seal, but my current Zipp Tangente Speed RT25s have not had a single puncture in 800mi on rough Bay Area roads.

Why would I carry sealant on a ride? Who does that?

I wouldn't ever think of running tubulars here in the SF Bay. Too much glass, too much effort, and they have worse rolling resistance.

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boysa
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:03 pm
Location: Too far from my bike.

by boysa

TobinHatesYou wrote:Just my opinion, but tubeless really is "all that."

+1
TobinHatesYou wrote:The vast majority of my tubeless punctures occur without me realizing until after my ride.

+2
TobinHatesYou wrote:Orange Seal is simply the best all-around sealant.

+3
Agree with all these statements. I'll add I feel Schwalbe kind of suck, and I've been much more impressed with IRC's offerings.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." William Munny

scale29
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:40 pm

by scale29

I’ll 3rd the above statements. I’m all in on tubeless. At least with tubeless if it really won’t reseal you can drop a tube in and carry on, even with a makeshift tyre boot. I don’t carry sealant on a ride, just a light tube and an inflator..

Marin
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Get a Dynaplug or tire worms, they work.

Geoff
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

Wait a sec. As 'daily drivers', my experience with tubeless has been surprisingly good. I certainly did not expect to like them as much as I have. Having said that, tubeless tires are not the same as tubular tires from the perspective of road feel.

I have ridden on tubular tires for most of my life. Except for a brief stint testing the 'new' clinchers, I have trained and raced on tubulars exclusively. I am currently running 3 sets of tubeless wheels as part of a long-term test of the system (Shimano, Campagnolo and Bontranger). I have found them to be very sensitive to match-up of tire and rim, but generally my experience so far has been very positive.

It is complete nonsense to say that tubeless tires are the equal of tubulars. They still ride like garden hoses in comparision (solely from the perspective of rider 'feel'). If you can get away with riding tubulars (i.e., conditions without a lot of puncture-causing road debris), then you should do it. If you live where there is a big risk of punctures resulting from penetration punctures, then tubeless tires will probably be a great option.

sungod
Posts: 1607
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: it's raining, it must be uk

by sungod

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:26 am
...and they have worse rolling resistance.
based on?

as a blanket claim it's simply untrue, there's more to crr than whether a tyre is tubeless/tubular/clincher+inner tube

if we take https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/ as impartial arbiter - i'm not claiming they are, but there's not much else out there to reference - then the lowest crr is currently the Vittoria Corsa Speed (open TLR) if run tubeless, if run with a tube it's higher crr than the next in the list which is the tub version of the same tyre

i.e. the fastest tub is faster than all but one tubeless, and is faster than all clinchers+inner tube

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1516
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Just about every independent testing house makes the same claim, but if you want the opinion of a trusted traditional name, I’ll just leave this here.

https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/CampyW ... ora_wheels

“Rolling resistance is also created where contact between tire and road occurs. According to both our internal research and a myriad of independent studies, rolling resistance varies depending on the type of tire being used. Contrary to popular belief, the tubular tire is the worst performer, the clincher/inner tube represents a significant improvement and tubeless tires offer the least rolling resistance of all“

shimmeD
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

It sounds like on this board we like to impose our opinions (and at times use 'facts' to say I'm right and you're wrong). Actually I think that there's too much on this board. In most cases there's no clear black and white and I'd put tubular/tubeless in this category.
I like my tubs and when I wear out my current tubeless I may get to love them more with newer and better ones. Albeit I won't get exact or close comparisons as I have differing wheels.
Less is more.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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by bm0p700f

I use both and my tubeless setups are more comfortable. Fixing tubeless tyres is easy and with tubeless I don't have to carry spare tyres.

There are good and bad tubeless tyres like there are good and bad tubed tyres. The sealant can fix bigger punctures in a tubeless tyre than is possible in a tubular. had many tubular flats even on gatorskins that have needed a roadside tyre change. I have never had a tubeless puncture that cant be repaired well enough to get me home. With worms big 8mm holes can be fixed. I have seen through and through puncture i could put my little finger through fixed with worms. I have tested this as much as i can and while some tubeless tyres are lacking the technology itself is a sound one.

addictR1
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 am

by addictR1

a buddy of mine rides tubeless exclusively and fills it up wit NoStans sealant. it was great and all until last time him and my other friend went climbing and he had a rear puncture going up hill... needless to say, my other friend riding behind him got jeezed all over his face, bike, bibs, you name it it's all over him. lol

jlok
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Try Slime sealant next time for added effect when jeezing lol
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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IrrelevantD
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: Near DFW Airport

by IrrelevantD

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:26 am
The only time I've gotten an unsealable, unrepairable flat with tubelss is when I ran over a huge screw...like 5-6mm wide. It perforated the top of the tire, gouged my tire bed and exited the tire sidewall.

Just my opinion, but tubeless really is "all that." I carry tiny mini-pump and a DynaPlug Racer for difficult punctures. I haven't had to use it yet. The vast majority of my tubeless punctures occur without me realizing until after my ride. Almost all tubeless issues I've come across end up being user error or poor product choices. Stan's SUCKS for road pressures. Orange Seal is simply the best all-around sealant. It lasts longer before drying, isn't as messy, and seals better. Some tires seal better than others. As good as my Schwalbe Pro Ones have been, their lack of a butyl inner liner makes them puncture prone. They still seal, but my current Zipp Tangente Speed RT25s have not had a single puncture in 800mi on rough Bay Area roads.

Why would I carry sealant on a ride? Who does that?

I wouldn't ever think of running tubulars here in the SF Bay. Too much glass, too much effort, and they have worse rolling resistance.
I agree with everything except the bit about Orange Seal and Stans. I've been running road tubeless for 10 years and I've left far too many puddles of Caffeelatex, Orange Seal, Slime, and Finish Line on pavement to use anything but Stan's anymore. Specifically, I use Stan's Race almost exclusively and have never had an issue with it, even with my Pro Ones. From my experience, Stan's typically lasts about the life of the tire. I ride about 6,000mi a year, and have multiple wheels, so I typically replace tires every 6mo or so.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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by bm0p700f

Lucky you moat people though leave puddles of Stans on the floor and not Caffè latex or orange seal.

Stans race can't even be injected through the valve stem. Even when I have to do it slowly it clogs. The only way to avoid that is not to shake the bottle.

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WinterRider
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

IrrelevantD wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:44 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:26 am
The only time I've gotten an unsealable, unrepairable flat with tubelss is when I ran over a huge screw...like 5-6mm wide. It perforated the top of the tire, gouged my tire bed and exited the tire sidewall.

Just my opinion, but tubeless really is "all that." I carry tiny mini-pump and a DynaPlug Racer for difficult punctures. I haven't had to use it yet. The vast majority of my tubeless punctures occur without me realizing until after my ride. Almost all tubeless issues I've come across end up being user error or poor product choices. Stan's SUCKS for road pressures. Orange Seal is simply the best all-around sealant. It lasts longer before drying, isn't as messy, and seals better. Some tires seal better than others. As good as my Schwalbe Pro Ones have been, their lack of a butyl inner liner makes them puncture prone. They still seal, but my current Zipp Tangente Speed RT25s have not had a single puncture in 800mi on rough Bay Area roads.

Why would I carry sealant on a ride? Who does that?

I wouldn't ever think of running tubulars here in the SF Bay. Too much glass, too much effort, and they have worse rolling resistance.
I agree with everything except the bit about Orange Seal and Stans. I've been running road tubeless for 10 years and I've left far too many puddles of Caffeelatex, Orange Seal, Slime, and Finish Line on pavement to use anything but Stan's anymore. Specifically, I use Stan's Race almost exclusively and have never had an issue with it, even with my Pro Ones. From my experience, Stan's typically lasts about the life of the tire. I ride about 6,000mi a year, and have multiple wheels, so I typically replace tires every 6mo or so.
I started w Stan's first couple tires and then to the pumpkin stuff given it's ability so stated to withstand cold-- in the endurance mixture. Pumpkin stuff dried out so easily.. finally had to chg out an original tire w the Stan's .. get this.. still liquid and doing the job.

So.. I put the 'never dries out' Finish Line over the dry orange.. that tire stayed up the most consistent of any I've done tubeless. FLine stated to make sure the orange was DRY.

So now... wanting to avoid getting into home brew sealants.. I made the plunge anyway. Equal part Elmers regular glue and water with a generous TBS of ammonia window cleaner and a small packet of glitter.. this tested in the 32 front rubber of the Ultra ll NON tubeless on the RainDaze bike. That tire leaked down overnite.. now it's holding very well. I'm trying to replicate the Stan's formula albeit w more sealing ability.

by Weenie


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