Are they REALLY that good??

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Aya
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:50 am

by Aya

Every bike has its weakness, I think. and actually I have read many negative things about flagship bikes.
For example, Venge Bias had brake issue. I heard Dogma series has low vertical compliance and low BB stiffness. SL5 Tarmac is too heavy compared to its competitors. and so on and on...
Of course, many bike reviews partly seem to be advertizing, but I don't think their favorable comments are pointless. Because we can only compare bikes that are exist present, there may well be 10/10 bikes, though it is not really perfect.
I haven't used so many bikes yet. but having 6 bikes made of aluminium and carbon, I clearly feel the differences between them. Some differences are the matter of 'good or bad' aspect, and some are just a matter of private taste. So I think that the personal estimation could be different. but exellent bikes which many people praise so have something really exellent.
Last edited by Aya on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

Aya wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 am
I heard Dogma series has low vertical compliance and low BB stiffness.
If you "heard" this, does it make it true? I've spent months on this frame and found exactly the opposite.

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:01 am
Aya wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 am
I heard Dogma series has low vertical compliance and low BB stiffness.
If you "heard" this, does it make it true? I've spent months on this frame and found exactly the opposite.
Low BB stiffness for the Dogma....for sure! That's a good one ...:mrgreen:
Low vertical compliance? I am sure some Dogma owners have here a problem as they use a bike which is not made for them. They would better go for an endurance frame :P

maxxevv
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by maxxevv

As mentioned, its really a lot to do with cognitive bias rather than absolute differences. And most of that difference usually is derived from the geometry and component differences such as the wheels and positional differences resulting from geometry differences.

I would say most people out there would be hard pressed to actually tell a difference if they do a double blind test on identically equipped and identical geometry frames and set-up bikes of the same material. With say a 2~5 times difference in the frameset price tag. Especially if they have never ridden either frames before.

There are subtleties of course, having owned the Paris FP, 585, 595, EPS over the past 15 years. But all the bikes had at least some geometry differences even though I transferred groupsets and parts between them mostly.

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TonyM
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by TonyM

I DO see the differences! YES in terms of $... :mrgreen: ..they all are very expensive.....

Most of us have bikes which are much better than our legs/ fitness etc.....but that's ok. It's like cars. Ok like motorcycle. Or like computers. etc.....

Aya
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:50 am

by Aya

Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:01 am
Aya wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 am
I heard Dogma series has low vertical compliance and low BB stiffness.
If you "heard" this, does it make it true? I've spent months on this frame and found exactly the opposite.
I heard about it several months ago in the other bike forum while the people were talking about something related to stiffness. Maybe your bike is not the one I mentioned, cause I told about Dogma 65.1. Someone showed me reviews of a German bike magazine about several bike's stiffness test, and in that test, Dogma 65.1 showed very low BB stiffness and very low head tube stiffness too.
People often think a frame of discomfort ride feel as a very stiff bike. But even if the frame is not very stiff, if it has low vertical compliance, you could feel it as if very stiff bike. For example, so far as I know, Cervelo S5 is not a very stiff frame but many people say that they feel it as a very stiff bike, cause it has low vertical compliance. Dogma may be in this case too, but it is just my guess. :)

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corky
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by corky

How do you attribute head tube stiffness or lack of it to the frame? Could be the steerer or forks or stem or bars or wheel......also a 51 cm Frame has a short headtubecompared to a 58cm....there’s so much Bertie bollocks written and spoken about stiffness....

How many people race at a high level? If not, why do you see stifffness as a Holy Grail of frame design?

Jenmoss
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:15 am

by Jenmoss

Isn’t it a personal choice? I have a £6000 custom framed guru and a very old 5900 super light trek . I love riding that trek , it feels like home to me , it’s been brought back from the dead quite a few times .
No can say “there bike is the best “, the pros say this when ever they get a new team bike. What we do know is that over the years many pro riders get custom frames made and don’t ride the brand they are meant to. Personally I do not like a stiff bike . You end up complying to the will of the bike , I prefer some flex and give , the bike follows you. This talk About stiffness is usually related to weight “ we have dropped the weight of the frame and increased the stiffness “ to what “. i.e we have just made the same frame a bit stronger and lighter. Look at cervelo and the old r3 sl this was a really great lightweight frame very underestimated and home built .You would pay thousands now for a hand built frame of similar quality. There are some fantastic bikes out there and IMO they are being ignored because they are not in “fashion “ anyone who rides spends £10.000 or so to have the same bike as their hero’s have been seriously suckered.

AJS914
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by AJS914

Hey Xena!

Bordcla
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by Bordcla

Marketing spiel and cognitive biases aside, it would stand to reason that a better manufactured bike, better assembled with better materials, would "feel better".

No one would dispute that high end skis made of light and stiff materials are much "livelier" than cheap noodly ones. My experience with bikes have been the same.

Lower end frames tend to have more basic materials and more resin in them compared to the super light ones made of higher grade fibers, sometimes with different methods to ensure better compaction and limit the amount of resin to just what is needed to hold the plies and fibers together. The former will feel "dead" but will be sturdy. The latter are lighter and feel more like those high end skis: when they do flex, they return that energy with more "snap". That's probably the liveliness that people talk about.

I ride a mid grade Specialized Tarmac SL4 and, other than being bulletproof so far and handling really well, it is generally nothing much to talk about. I did ride an S-Works in the same size and it felt different. It did have that "snap" that is clearly absent from mine when putting the power down. Does that make the much more expensive S-Works a "better" or "faster" bike? Depends on priorities and perspective. It is a bit lighter and much more expensive. Also, to me, that "snap" made it a bit more special to ride. Is that weight advantage and subtle feeling enough to justify the extra expense? Probably not objectively. But to someone who likes having "the best possible equipment" and the one that feels the best, perhaps.

A more relevant question would also be: are all high end bikes "better made" than all low end ones? It's important because I attribute the nice feeling to better manufacturing. Without it, you're just paying more...

To each his own.

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

You stated a cognitive bias in your argument that followed "putting cognitive biases aside" :wink:
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

Senna993
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by Senna993

I for one appreciate the special treatment and proper deference shown by my local bike shop when I arrive astride my Cervelo RCA. Not to mention the jealous looks from other riders. Priceless!

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Senna993 wrote:I for one appreciate the special treatment and proper deference shown by my local bike shop when I arrive astride my Cervelo RCA. Not to mention the jealous looks from other riders. Priceless!
That’s a good one indeed! Image
That point is also very important! ImageImage

You just have to make sure that the other recognize it as something valuable (I personally would not distinguish a « RCA » from a regular Cervelo; But I am not really a Cervelo fan also).

Jenmoss
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:15 am

by Jenmoss

Senna993 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:57 pm
I for one appreciate the special treatment and proper deference shown by my local bike shop when I arrive astride my Cervelo RCA. Not to mention the jealous looks from other riders. Priceless!
A name can be everything. Most fellow riders have no idea what my bike is. So don’t really get any envious eyes . I’m good with that .

AJS914
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by AJS914

I've had other riders salivate over my C59. They don't know that it's a C59 but they see "Colnago" and experience immediate bike lust.

I used to get the same reaction when I drove my 1981 Porsche 911SC. It was not an expensive car when I bought it, a new Honda Civic cost a lot more, but the 911 attracted attention like no other car I've ever had.

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