Blow-out - Michelin latex tube on SL23 rim

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Svetty
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country

by Svetty

Had rear blow-out this weekend on a downhill. No apparent cause when I checked the tyre. Possible heat issue but is this likely on alloy rim? I don't generally ride the brakes and am 76 Kg....

dzmlyk
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:52 am

by dzmlyk

Pinched tube? Depending on tires those rims can be a really tight fit.

by Weenie


sawyer
Posts: 4484
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Location: Natovi Landing

by sawyer

Hi Svetty
Search my posts and you'll find advice not to use latex tubes

They are dangerous

Fortunately it wasn't your front however

Butyl or (better still) tubular
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

Nicos
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:49 am

by Nicos

Maybe large rim + large tyre combination was too much for the tube circonference? What's your tyre width?

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WMW
in the industry
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:59 pm
Location: Ruidoso, NM

by WMW

Svetty wrote:Had rear blow-out this weekend on a downhill. No apparent cause when I checked the tyre. Possible heat issue but is this likely on alloy rim? I don't generally ride the brakes and am 76 Kg....


Did the tire bead come off the rim? If so, then it must have been a pinched tube. The older SL23s are really tight and have aggressive bead hooks.

Latex tubes can last a long time in a pinched state before heat and cornering forces push the tire bead off the rim.
formerly rruff...

hasbeen
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:17 pm

by hasbeen

as a public service please mail all latex tubes to your nearest tubular manufacturer.
Casati Vola SLi and Dolan Preffisio
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=108931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
btompkins0112 wrote:
It has the H2 geo......one step racier than a hybrid bike

Svetty
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country

by Svetty

Tube had been carefully fitted weeks before and done several hundred miles without a problem. 110 PSI when I left the house, ambient temp 16 deg C. The hole in the tube was on the side - neither opposite the rim tape nor tread - approximately where the tyre abuts the bead hook. The tyre stayed on the rim and was undamaged (new 23mm Ultremo ZX). I checked the rim tape and it was still covering all the spoke holes properly. It might have been 'just one of those things' but my confidence in latex tubes has been dented.

BTW - Am getting pretty good at fitting tyres to these rims now - can quickly fit without a lever and I'm an aging admin worker so not especially strong hands :D

1415chris
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Location: Surrey UK

by 1415chris

sawyer wrote:Butyl or (better still) tubular

With latex inners :)

pdlpsher1
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I have had many blowouts on latex similar to your experience. I don't know what causes latex tubes to open/tear up but after a year of much trouble I switched back to butyl.

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WMW
in the industry
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:59 pm
Location: Ruidoso, NM

by WMW

Svetty wrote:The tyre stayed on the rim and was undamaged (new 23mm Ultremo ZX). I checked the rim tape and it was still covering all the spoke holes properly. It might have been 'just one of those things' but my confidence in latex tubes has been dented.


Having a tough time fathoming what happened. Seems like if the tube was pinched, the tire bead would come off the rim. That's normally what happens. When properly installed tubes are under essentially zero stress. They aren't going to explode unless the "container" fails suddenly or something weird happened during install.

I've got 50k miles on latex tubes, and the only time I had an issue was using Stan's 340s. They don't really have a bead hook and many people have had issues with tires coming off (butyl tubes too). I go over 50 mph often, so I certainly don't want tires coming off! Or blowouts.

But... another thing I'm wondering is if the tube can sneak under the tire bead during inflation. I've not used "tubeless ready" rims except for the 340s, and in the last month I've been on SL23s. Otherwise it's all normal rims.

Could you put up a photo of the tube?
formerly rruff...

beeatnik
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 pm

by beeatnik

Svetty wrote:Tube had been carefully fitted weeks before and done several hundred miles without a problem. 110 PSI when I left the house, ambient temp 16 deg C.

BTW - Am getting pretty good at fitting tyres to these rims now - can quickly fit without a lever and I'm an aging admin worker so not especially strong hands :D


110psi on 24mm rims w/ latex tubes? :noidea: That's triple pinch flat protection right there.

At a loss of comfort and speed.

sawyer
Posts: 4484
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Location: Natovi Landing

by sawyer

1415chris wrote:
sawyer wrote:Butyl or (better still) tubular

With latex inners :)


Exactly. It's latex in an open system (clincher) that's dangerous

In a closed system ... lovely!
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

bratz
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:22 pm

by bratz

WMW wrote:
Svetty wrote:The tyre stayed on the rim and was undamaged (new 23mm Ultremo ZX). I checked the rim tape and it was still covering all the spoke holes properly. It might have been 'just one of those things' but my confidence in latex tubes has been dented.


Having a tough time fathoming what happened. Seems like if the tube was pinched, the tire bead would come off the rim. That's normally what happens. When properly installed tubes are under essentially zero stress. They aren't going to explode unless the "container" fails suddenly or something weird happened during install.

I've got 50k miles on latex tubes, and the only time I had an issue was using Stan's 340s. They don't really have a bead hook and many people have had issues with tires coming off (butyl tubes too). I go over 50 mph often, so I certainly don't want tires coming off! Or blowouts.

But... another thing I'm wondering is if the tube can sneak under the tire bead during inflation. I've not used "tubeless ready" rims except for the 340s, and in the last month I've been on SL23s. Otherwise it's all normal rims.

Could you put up a photo of the tube?

Im agreeing with WMW here. I've used latex michelin inners exclusively after i started cycling for 6 months. Till date approx. 3.5yrs usage at about 9k km annually. That said my terrain is flat as pancake. Latex used in combination of reynolds assault/fulcrum zero/Chinese carbon rim/ksyrium elite with gp4k/veloflex corsa/michelin pro3 and 4. Apart from 2 blowout while pumping tires after installation in the first 3months of usage, i've learn how to properly install these tubes by using talc and check(which i will go round the rims 3-4 times) that no tubes were pinched. Will pump the tube up to maybe 80psi then deflate it again to check around the rims 3-4times again before fully inflating. I normally take around 20mins(yes its 20 not a typo of 2mins)to install the latex tube so i'd only bring butyl tube on ride where i can change it in 5mins roadside.

sawyer
Posts: 4484
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Location: Natovi Landing

by sawyer

bratz wrote:
WMW wrote:
Svetty wrote:The tyre stayed on the rim and was undamaged (new 23mm Ultremo ZX). I checked the rim tape and it was still covering all the spoke holes properly. It might have been 'just one of those things' but my confidence in latex tubes has been dented.


Having a tough time fathoming what happened. Seems like if the tube was pinched, the tire bead would come off the rim. That's normally what happens. When properly installed tubes are under essentially zero stress. They aren't going to explode unless the "container" fails suddenly or something weird happened during install.

I've got 50k miles on latex tubes, and the only time I had an issue was using Stan's 340s. They don't really have a bead hook and many people have had issues with tires coming off (butyl tubes too). I go over 50 mph often, so I certainly don't want tires coming off! Or blowouts.

But... another thing I'm wondering is if the tube can sneak under the tire bead during inflation. I've not used "tubeless ready" rims except for the 340s, and in the last month I've been on SL23s. Otherwise it's all normal rims.

Could you put up a photo of the tube?

Im agreeing with WMW here. I've used latex michelin inners exclusively after i started cycling for 6 months. Till date approx. 3.5yrs usage at about 9k km annually. That said my terrain is flat as pancake. Latex used in combination of reynolds assault/fulcrum zero/Chinese carbon rim/ksyrium elite with gp4k/veloflex corsa/michelin pro3 and 4. Apart from 2 blowout while pumping tires after installation in the first 3months of usage, i've learn how to properly install these tubes by using talc and check(which i will go round the rims 3-4 times) that no tubes were pinched. Will pump the tube up to maybe 80psi then deflate it again to check around the rims 3-4times again before fully inflating. I normally take around 20mins(yes its 20 not a typo of 2mins)to install the latex tube so i'd only bring butyl tube on ride where i can change it in 5mins roadside.


You're right that some people seem to have a technique that works

Implicit in your post however, and supported by real world experience, is that it requires
a lot of care and is easy to get wrong.

Given this is one of the most safety critical components on the bike one has to question
how sensible it is ... unless they are safely ensconced in a tubular!

The other point worth thinking about is how well an inherently unstable system (clincher plus latex inner tube) will stand up under extreme conditions - 80/90 km/h 12-15% descents in 30oC+ in the high mountains on latex and clinchers?

I don't know of a single manufacturer who supplies complete bikes with latex tubes, and similarly, some wheel manufacturers explicitly recommend not using them
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

bratz
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:22 pm

by bratz

Yes i agree its easy to get installation incorrect. Being said, im not preaching to others to use latex tubes. Only puzzled by issues faced by others if proper care has been taken during installation. i've always advised friends/teammates that they have to take a lot of extra care in installing them if using it in our "pancake flat" terrain. If they dont wish to have the hassle, please use butyl.

I may add that im currently on latex/veloflex/chinese clincher due to my thoughts of going tubular with veloflex.

by Weenie


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