Vredestein Senso Superiore 320tpi (Update with photos compared to Veloflex)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

possibleweenie wrote:
Hi there,

Where do you see that 17c info? I am on the Veloflex site now and I can't find a limit. Or are you referring to the ETRTO guidelines published a while ago? These link below shows the image Mavic published:

Image

There, it shows a 25c tire suggested to fit into an 18c max rim.

Is this what you mean by 17c max rim internal width? Or is it specific from Veloflex?


ETRTO is on the box. Minimum is 13mm and maximum 17mm (inner rim width). If you mount any non-cotton tire (stiff vulcanized 120-180 TPI), you can safely ignore ETRTO, mostly due to pre-shape of a tire. In other word, you can mount 25mm Conti 4000S II tire on very wide 23mm (inner width) rim and ride it for years! In contrast, cotton tires (supple unvulcanized 280-360 TPI) are not pre-shaped and very soft sidewall hence ETRTO guidelines should not be ignored.

Image
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

possibleweenie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm

by possibleweenie

mpulsiv wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
Hi there,

Where do you see that 17c info? I am on the Veloflex site now and I can't find a limit. Or are you referring to the ETRTO guidelines published a while ago? These link below shows the image Mavic published:

Image

There, it shows a 25c tire suggested to fit into an 18c max rim.

Is this what you mean by 17c max rim internal width? Or is it specific from Veloflex?


ETRTO is on the box. Minimum is 13mm and maximum 17mm (inner rim width). If you mount any non-cotton tire (stiff vulcanized 120-180 TPI), you can safely ignore ETRTO, mostly due to pre-shape of a tire. In other word, you can mount 25mm Conti 4000S II tire on very wide 23mm (inner width) rim and ride it for years! In contrast, cotton tires (supple unvulcanized 280-360 TPI) are not pre-shaped and very soft sidewall hence ETRTO guidelines should not be ignored.

Image


Thanks for that. Looks like it may still work alright on some wide rims as others in the thread on max rim width are reporting.

possibleweenie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm

by possibleweenie

So,

I just got the delivery of the tyres and tubes.

Here are some photos for further info, especially since the Vredesteins are a bit obscure:

Vredestein Superiore avg. weight for 25c: ~231g
Veloflex Master 25 avg. weight: ~206g

Bead to bead measurement, inside to inside of bead

Vredestein Superiore 25c: 6.2cm
Veloflex Master 25: 5.3cm
Schwalbe Pro One 25c: 6.2cm

If you look at one of the photos, though, you'll see that although the Veloflex is a thinner tyre overall, it has a slightly wider tread...Maybe Veloflex thought that 25mm meant a slightly larger tread and a tiny little bit more of body compared to 23mm? I mean, that's a 9mm difference between the "mainstream" (if we can call it that way) 25mm tyres and the Veloflex...?

Mounted the Veloflex today. They went in by hand only. Not easy, but not overly hard either. If you do the "take the slack off opposite from the valve first" technique, they do in. Maybe my rims are a bit smaller than usual.

I'll save my comments and check back with you after I've done a good amount of riding on them so as to get familiar with the feel so I can then mound the Vreds and do a comparison. Quick impression on 40km: different feedback than Pro Ones (as expected), silent, feel a bit slower, measured straight of the bat at 90psi at 25.2mm. Best config I got so far is 75 front and 85 rear.
Attachments
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
4.jpg
6.jpg
7.jpg

nachetetm
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

Any imput about the Vredestein Senso Superiore, what is the size on the 19c internal rims and how does it feel, compared with the Veloflex and the Pro One? I'm quite interested in the Vredestein and there is almost no info around regarding them.

possibleweenie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm

by possibleweenie

nachetetm wrote:Any imput about the Vredestein Senso Superiore, what is the size on the 19c internal rims and how does it feel, compared with the Veloflex and the Pro One? I'm quite interested in the Vredestein and there is almost no info around regarding them.


Unfortunately, due to work and other life commitments, my time with the tyres has not been as extended as I wish it would have been. Hence the lack of updates.

However, if you wish for a "so far" impressions after only a few hundred KM with all three of these I can say:

1) Speed feels about the same in between all three. Really.
2) Comfort seems about same between the Pro Ones and the Vredesteins
3) The Veloflex comfort is less. I can definitely tell you my arse feels this very clearly. It doesn't matter what PSI I run them at, volume is volume and the larger tyres have it. However, running on smooth tarmac, the Veloflex and the other two feel somewhat close to each other. However, for comfort, I'd go with anything that is true 25c.

This has lead me to believe that the difference among tyres in the "race" category are rather minor in terms of speed and feel. Thinking of getting some Power Comps for next summer as soon as I find them on sale.

On convenience, tubeless is the way to go.

On another note...the biggest difference between the two cotton tyres and the Pro Ones is noise. The Veloflex/Vredesteins are nearly silent compared to the hollow sounding Pro Ones.

Hope this helps.

Marin
Posts: 2764
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

possibleweenie, thank you for your posts - very good info that's hard to find otherwise.

Regarding speed, may I suggest you do a low-speed rolldown test? I do one in a parking garage, starting on a small ramp, and then I just observe how far I can roll on a set course.

Low speed takes aerodynamics out of the equation (repeatably the same distance on hoods & drops), and I can find clear differences between tires. My guess is you'll find that you roll a bit further on Vredesteins. If you do, I'll order a set too :)

nachetetm
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

possibleweenie wrote:
nachetetm wrote:Any imput about the Vredestein Senso Superiore, what is the size on the 19c internal rims and how does it feel, compared with the Veloflex and the Pro One? I'm quite interested in the Vredestein and there is almost no info around regarding them.


Unfortunately, due to work and other life commitments, my time with the tyres has not been as extended as I wish it would have been. Hence the lack of updates.

However, if you wish for a "so far" impressions after only a few hundred KM with all three of these I can say:

1) Speed feels about the same in between all three. Really.
2) Comfort seems about same between the Pro Ones and the Vredesteins
3) The Veloflex comfort is less. I can definitely tell you my arse feels this very clearly. It doesn't matter what PSI I run them at, volume is volume and the larger tyres have it. However, running on smooth tarmac, the Veloflex and the other two feel somewhat close to each other. However, for comfort, I'd go with anything that is true 25c.

This has lead me to believe that the difference among tyres in the "race" category are rather minor in terms of speed and feel. Thinking of getting some Power Comps for next summer as soon as I find them on sale.

On convenience, tubeless is the way to go.

On another note...the biggest difference between the two cotton tyres and the Pro Ones is noise. The Veloflex/Vredesteins are nearly silent compared to the hollow sounding Pro Ones.

Hope this helps.
Thank you for the input. It is really helpful and seems that the Vredesteins are worth a try. I'm going to upgrade soon to 19 or 20c inner width rims and I'm afraid my current challenge paris-roubaix will grow too much to fit comfortably in my fork (they are already 30mm width on 17c rims). I will need a 25 or 28 open tubular that doesn't grow over 30mm and the Vredesteins look good and are reasonably affordable on some online stores. Do you have any measurement about their real width? Thanks!!

Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk

possibleweenie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm

by possibleweenie

Marin wrote:possibleweenie, thank you for your posts - very good info that's hard to find otherwise.

Regarding speed, may I suggest you do a low-speed rolldown test? I do one in a parking garage, starting on a small ramp, and then I just observe how far I can roll on a set course.

Low speed takes aerodynamics out of the equation (repeatably the same distance on hoods & drops), and I can find clear differences between tires. My guess is you'll find that you roll a bit further on Vredesteins. If you do, I'll order a set too :)


Pleasure.

I wish I had the time to do a test, but I don't right now.
If you are in Europe, Mantel has a great price on the Vreds vs other sellers I would normally go to. Those and the Veloflexes too.

Sorry I can't be of much more help.

possibleweenie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm

by possibleweenie

nachetetm wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
nachetetm wrote:Any imput about the Vredestein Senso Superiore, what is the size on the 19c internal rims and how does it feel, compared with the Veloflex and the Pro One? I'm quite interested in the Vredestein and there is almost no info around regarding them.


Unfortunately, due to work and other life commitments, my time with the tyres has not been as extended as I wish it would have been. Hence the lack of updates.

However, if you wish for a "so far" impressions after only a few hundred KM with all three of these I can say:

1) Speed feels about the same in between all three. Really.
2) Comfort seems about same between the Pro Ones and the Vredesteins
3) The Veloflex comfort is less. I can definitely tell you my arse feels this very clearly. It doesn't matter what PSI I run them at, volume is volume and the larger tyres have it. However, running on smooth tarmac, the Veloflex and the other two feel somewhat close to each other. However, for comfort, I'd go with anything that is true 25c.

This has lead me to believe that the difference among tyres in the "race" category are rather minor in terms of speed and feel. Thinking of getting some Power Comps for next summer as soon as I find them on sale.

On convenience, tubeless is the way to go.

On another note...the biggest difference between the two cotton tyres and the Pro Ones is noise. The Veloflex/Vredesteins are nearly silent compared to the hollow sounding Pro Ones.

Hope this helps.
Thank you for the input. It is really helpful and seems that the Vredesteins are worth a try. I'm going to upgrade soon to 19 or 20c inner width rims and I'm afraid my current challenge paris-roubaix will grow too much to fit comfortably in my fork (they are already 30mm width on 17c rims). I will need a 25 or 28 open tubular that doesn't grow over 30mm and the Vredesteins look good and are reasonably affordable on some online stores. Do you have any measurement about their real width? Thanks!!

Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk


I got 19c rim and the measurements of the three tyres in discussion here are:

Pro One 25s: 28mm @ 85psi
Vreds 25s: 27.5mm @ 90psi
Veloflex 25s: 25mm @ 90psi

nachetetm
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

possibleweenie wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:06 pm
nachetetm wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
nachetetm wrote:Any imput about the Vredestein Senso Superiore, what is the size on the 19c internal rims and how does it feel, compared with the Veloflex and the Pro One? I'm quite interested in the Vredestein and there is almost no info around regarding them.
Unfortunately, due to work and other life commitments, my time with the tyres has not been as extended as I wish it would have been. Hence the lack of updates.

However, if you wish for a "so far" impressions after only a few hundred KM with all three of these I can say:

1) Speed feels about the same in between all three. Really.
2) Comfort seems about same between the Pro Ones and the Vredesteins
3) The Veloflex comfort is less. I can definitely tell you my arse feels this very clearly. It doesn't matter what PSI I run them at, volume is volume and the larger tyres have it. However, running on smooth tarmac, the Veloflex and the other two feel somewhat close to each other. However, for comfort, I'd go with anything that is true 25c.

This has lead me to believe that the difference among tyres in the "race" category are rather minor in terms of speed and feel. Thinking of getting some Power Comps for next summer as soon as I find them on sale.

On convenience, tubeless is the way to go.

On another note...the biggest difference between the two cotton tyres and the Pro Ones is noise. The Veloflex/Vredesteins are nearly silent compared to the hollow sounding Pro Ones.

Hope this helps.
Thank you for the input. It is really helpful and seems that the Vredesteins are worth a try. I'm going to upgrade soon to 19 or 20c inner width rims and I'm afraid my current challenge paris-roubaix will grow too much to fit comfortably in my fork (they are already 30mm width on 17c rims). I will need a 25 or 28 open tubular that doesn't grow over 30mm and the Vredesteins look good and are reasonably affordable on some online stores. Do you have any measurement about their real width? Thanks!!

Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk
I got 19c rim and the measurements of the three tyres in discussion here are:

Pro One 25s: 28mm @ 85psi
Vreds 25s: 27.5mm @ 90psi
Veloflex 25s: 25mm @ 90psi
Any further update regarding the Vredestein? I was about to buy Turbo Cottons in 26 or 28 for my front tire and the guy at the bike shop discouraged me, he said they are very fragile and best kept for races only, much weaker than my current Challenge Paris-Roubaix which I ride quite frequently on unpaved roads. I am inclined to trust him as he is one of those Specialized dealers that do not sell any other brand and he has plenty of imput from customers riding Turbo Cottons in my area (and I appreciate his honesty, instead of just selling me the tire).

Which takes me to the start line again; i need a tire that mounted on 19c rims has a real 28 or 29c size and has tan walls to match the aestetics or my rear Challenge Paris-Roubaix. The Vredestein Superiore are my preferred option and they are supposed to be "all weather", but I would like some imput regarding their durability. My other option would be a Challenge Strada Pro or Elite Pro, but despite being very happy with my current P-R, Internet is full with horrific stories of Challenge tires coming out of the rim and I feel a bit worried.

To sum up, I would appreciate further input regarding the Vredestein and any of the mentioned tires.
Cheers!

User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

In grand scheme of things, any cotton tire will be fragile.

I highly recommend Panaracer Gravel King 28mm (brown side wall) or Panaracer Race D (darker brown redish sidewall). I own both. Race D have reinforced sidewall and thicker tread thus more puncture resistant. They also ride a bit wider (e.g. 30mm). The best part about this tire is that they are the lowest height in it class. Despite its width, you will not have any issues with clearance. To put this in perspective, this tire is ~4mm lower than Continental GP4000S (e.g. tallest in its class) has major clearance issues.
To sum up, Panaracer Race D is a tougher tire next to Panaracer Gravel King (e.g. more supple, less puncture resistant, easier to mount due to non-reinforced sidewall). Panaracer Race D is my winter tire.
www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&des ... 1&minor=27

Image





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

nachetetm
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

mpulsiv wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:18 pm
In grand scheme of things, any cotton tire will be fragile.

I highly recommend Panaracer Gravel King 28mm (brown side wall) or Panaracer Race D (darker brown redish sidewall). I own both. Race D have reinforced sidewall and thicker tread thus more puncture resistant. They also ride a bit wider (e.g. 30mm). The best part about this tire is that they are the lowest height in it class. Despite its width, you will not have any issues with clearance. To put this in perspective, this tire is ~4mm lower than Continental GP4000S (e.g. tallest in its class) has major clearance issues.
To sum up, Panaracer Race D is a tougher tire next to Panaracer Gravel King (e.g. more supple, less puncture resistant, easier to mount due to non-reinforced sidewall). Panaracer Race D is my winter tire.
www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&des ... 1&minor=27

Image
I know the issue with punctures is always very mystical and luck-dependent but in the last year, on a total of 4000 kms riding between my bikes, the Gravelking I just installed in the front wheel of my commuter flatted twice in less than 200 kms, while I didn't get any flat with the previous Schwalbes on the same bike neither the Challenge Paris-Roubaix on the "nice" bike, and they got some beating, including some bikepacking over unpaved and very broken paved surfaves. The P-R seem to stop the glass cuts very well (you can see the cuts but they do not penetrate the puncture protection layer), while on the Gravelking they cut through the tire and reach the tube very easily. On top of that, I quite dislike the way the Gravelkings ride at low pressures. I am sure they are fine tires but definitely not for me. Perhaps I got a "dude", who knows.

Regarding clearance and tire height, the bike has a Columbus hiver fork with medium reach calipers and although a bit of extra vertical clearance is always welcomed for winter when I am running mudguards, my major issue is with side clearance. I really need to stick with tires that do not grow over 29c. The truth is that the P-R were very reliable and ideal for my riding. When new they were 29c and the clearance was acceptable but they stretched to 30c (on 17c internal wide rims) as they aged and I am already a bit worried about clearance (a bit more than 1mm on each side). On the newer, wider rims I am afraid clearance is going to be just too tight. Perhaps the best choice would be to stick to Challenge tires and go one size smaller (Strada Pro) but those are probably not as resistant as their puncture protection is thinner. I will most likely choose those, but first I would like to hear some other input for the Vredestein or perhaps other alternatives. Corsa Controls look nice too but its walls have a different tone of tan.

User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

@nachetetm

Yes, Gravel King tire is fragile. From slew of rider's feedback, the Challenge tires are even more fragile.
Perhaps you should try 28mm Panaracer Race D tire? I must admit, Gravel King brown is more appealing :D

Image
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

nachetetm
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 pm

by nachetetm

mpulsiv wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:08 pm
@nachetetm

Yes, Gravel King tire is fragile. From slew of rider's feedback, the Challenge tires are even more fragile.
Perhaps you should try 28mm Panaracer Race D tire? I must admit, Gravel King brown is more appealing :D

Image
I must admit the brown Gravel King look sexy! And beautiful picture indeed! Perhaps when Panaracer releases a tubeless version in the 28 and 32mm widths I'll give them another opportunity in my good bike. I'm keeping them ones I have (32mm non-SK) in the commuter for a while, at least until i get tired of fixing flats.

The Race D are too brown to mix them with the yellow-tan of the Challenge Paris-Roubaix that I will still have in the rear tire of my good bike. Now I understand the attraction of black tires: all of them color-match if you need to use different brands/sizes front and rear. Perhaps I may ignore the different tan shade and go for the Corsa Controls: price is good and are more resistant than normal Corsa G+.

User avatar
mpulsiv
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

Yes, once Panaracer releases 28-32mm Gravel King tubeless, it will be fantastic all-around tire. That's when I will recycle my Panaracer Race D tire. Riding characteristics is on par with Continental GP4000S, which is a harsh tire. Both can last ~4000 miles. Nevertheless, you don't need to worry about flats!
By the way, the narrowest tubeless is 35mm www.compasscycle.com/product-category/c ... tires/700c
TC = tubeless compatible

Image
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post