Karoo Hammerhead

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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IrrelevantD
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Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm
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by IrrelevantD

I got an email that a Karoo Software Development Cycle Update was posted today.

This actually has me a little concerned with what functionality we're going to get when these things show up at our doors and how fast we're going to start seeing things show up. There is very little information on details of the "Goshawk" features. Assuming they keep to their timeline, 6 weeks later we'll get updates to PM connectivity that really should be there in the initial realize and get stability and bug updates? That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the initial stability in my mind.

What really gets me is "Late Spring, 2018", which is really making me feel it will be fall at this point...
GENET, and beyond

Late Spring, 2018

Features not included just yet, but in the works for implementation starting later in 2018, will include:
More Sensor Data Types

At first, Karoo won’t be able to tackle data for some types of sensors, like electronic drivetrain information, lighting, radar systems, or muscle oxygen. Power meter data will be limited to power only, but we’re working on calibration functionality and additional PM data sets, such as balance, torque efficiency, smoothness, etc.
More In-ride Data Fields

Of the 150 metrics Karoo will eventually host, we’ll be prioritizing the inclusion of new ones based on customer feedback, and every update will have a new subset.
Ride Data Analysis

At present, Karoo stores all the ride data it records in the “Activities” app. Your raw data auto-syncs as downloadable .FIT files to the Karoo Dashboard. You can export this data for analysis via other programs, but we are also working on on-device data analysis, and we expect this to be ready in the next few months.
Training/Workout Interface

Training features are of major importance to our customers – and as avid cyclists ourselves, we share this focus! Incremental introduction of these features will occur in conjunction with feedback we’ll be getting from our community. We are working hard on integrating the existing ecosystem of training tools with Karoo, including adaptive on-device training analysis, so that Karoo can tell you what changes you need to make in order to meet your training goals.
Mapping & Navigation Improvements

We are building the most capable route creation and route management dashboard that exists. It is excellent now, and will only get better with time, as we enable more powerful tools and more intricate cycling-specific data layers to the maps. And it will always seamlessly sync with your Karoo.
Social Connectivity

Karoo’s Android-based interface and 3G connectivity will enable several social features we’re developing, including new classes of live data, competitions, alerts, group ride visualizations, sharing capability, and integrations with other platforms.
Service Connectivity

We are working to make Karoo compatible with as many cycling-related services as possible. We have started with Strava, but this is only the beginning.
The Karoo App Store

On the horizon is the Karoo App Store, in which many of your favorite cycling brands and services will build their own software experiences for the device. While we can’t get into specifics just yet, we will share that since Karoo has been introduced, we’ve been approached by a wide variety of companies, from drivetrain, suspension, and bicycle manufacturers, to professional cycling teams, coaching systems, and touring organizations. Some of the ideas they’ve brought forth for development have been very, very cool, and we can’t wait to share them with you in due time.
So much cause for concern here. So many things I would expect to be there from the start. Power meter calibration, and balance? Seriously, that's not available from the start? Only 30 data types at start, and we'll get up to 150 based on customer feedback eventually? No real information on what Strava integration they will have. Will beacon work?

I mean, I really like the idea of the Karoo, and I really don't want to ask for my money back, but we're up to about 6 months in delays just shipping and even then it doesn't sound like it's going to deliver on what they promised as far as functionality is concerned. It's really starting to sound like "we'll give you a Garmin Edge 20 with a really nice big screen and fix it as we go".
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

by Weenie


dvq
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by dvq

I doubt Hammerhead will ever get feature parity with either Garmin or Wahoo within the lifetime of the Karoo. Also you really have to look at their communications with pre-order members - when a feature is missing or was decided against, they keep quoting their market research. No speaker/buzzer for attention or navigation chimes? 3 temperature sensors but no recording of temperature to file? If these were explicit decisions and not oversights made by Hammerhead execs, you really have to wonder who the hell their focus group consists of.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

dvq wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 pm
I doubt Hammerhead will ever get feature parity with either Garmin or Wahoo within the lifetime of the Karoo. Also you really have to look at their communications with pre-order members - when a feature is missing or was decided against, they keep quoting their market research. No speaker/buzzer for attention or navigation chimes? 3 temperature sensors but no recording of temperature to file? If these were explicit decisions and not oversights made by Hammerhead execs, you really have to wonder who the hell their focus group consists of.
Agreed... given it's size and their focus on mapping, ultimate price point, etc, you would assume they'd be aiming to go up against the Garmin 10xx, which records tons of data and metrics. I guess I just see the base OS being Android as having tons of potential, but potential is nothing if not properly applied.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

They don’t know their market, and they don’t have real customer service / social expertise. It doesn’t matter how nice the Karoo’s screen is or how cool its Android underpinnings are. They lost me as a customer because they continue to lie about shipping timelines and dumb blog posts comparing Karoo to smartphones. Who here uses their smartphone as a computer regularly? Anyone?
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

jlok
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:11 am
They don’t know their market, and they don’t have real customer service / social expertise. It doesn’t matter how nice the Karoo’s screen is or how cool its Android underpinnings are. They lost me as a customer because they continue to lie about shipping timelines and dumb blog posts comparing Kapoo to smartphones. Who here uses their smartphone as a computer regularly? Anyone?
^exactly this. I'm glad that I couldn't place order as I'm out of the list of deliverable countries.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 / BMC TM02 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Oh...I forgot I have my iPad set to automatically spell-correct Karoo to Kapoo.

I think Hammerhead is currently actually targeting casual cyclists with their product. This is of course a dreadful mistake because those cyclists aren't going to pay $500 just for turn-by-turn. Those people are, in fact, probably fine with using their iPhones paired with an Elemnt Mini for their 30min rides or commutes. The Karoo is a device that misses the mark for everyone.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

Just got mine in the mail... First impressions is it's F-ing HUGE. Twice the size of my 810 and 3 times as heavy at least. We'll see how I like it for the next 30-35 days and if it's not panning out, return it and get another garmin.

I will say, despite having a surprisingly limited number of data fields right now, it is easy to setup.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

dvq
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by dvq

I heard the Karoo doesn't even have the elevation as a possible field yet. Wtf.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

dvq wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:23 am
I heard the Karoo doesn't even have the elevation as a possible field yet. Wtf.
Not that I could find. Pretty basic. Speed, Distance, Cadence, HR, Power with lap and average options for those. A lot of them are 3, 5, 10 second average, etc. Also time and time of day, but that’s about it. All in all, right now there’s about 30-40 options. They are supposed to be expanding that significantly, but might be too little to late for me.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

dougc405
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Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:10 am

by dougc405

IrrelevantD wrote:
dvq wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:23 am
I heard the Karoo doesn't even have the elevation as a possible field yet. Wtf.
Not that I could find. Pretty basic. Speed, Distance, Cadence, HR, Power with lap and average options for those. A lot of them are 3, 5, 10 second average, etc. Also time and time of day, but that’s about it. All in all, right now there’s about 30-40 options. They are supposed to be expanding that significantly, but might be too little to late for me.
There are metrics that are captured as data, but not exposed in the UI. They will show up in updates based on ""customer demand". It may be like the old days of Android with a steady stream of new features. I used to root my phone so that I could update it regilarly. Now that Android is mature, I can't be bothered. I'm guessing it will be a while before the functionality is fleshed out.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk


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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

dougc405 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:26 am
There are metrics that are captured as data, but not exposed in the UI. They will show up in updates based on ""customer demand". It may be like the old days of Android with a steady stream of new features. I used to root my phone so that I could update it regilarly. Now that Android is mature, I can't be bothered. I'm guessing it will be a while before the functionality is fleshed out.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
Unfortunately, there aren't any hidden metrics. Thanks to DC Rainmaker for the info, they have a dashboard site that apparently went online last night or early this morning. https://app.hammerhead.io/karoo/users/sign_in
From there you can download the .fit file. The ONLY data sets being recorded are Time, Distance, Power, Cadence, HR, Speed, Altitude, Latitude, Longitude and Slope.

My Garmin, in addition to the above had Temperature, L/R Balance, Left Torque Efficiency, Right Torque Efficiency, Left Pedal Smoothness, Right Pedal Smoothness, as well as a weather tab including time, distance, windspeed, wind heading, temperature and humidity. Not sure where this is coming from, I'm guessing bluetooth.

This doesn't mean they won't add these, they said that they will be adding more power meter functionality in the coming months, but I haven't seen a timeline more specific than "end of summer".
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

kwakekeham
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

Wanted to dreg this up since I got my Karoo. Technically it arrived a month ago, but just haven't made it to me.

Big points
- The screen. Infinitly more viewable than the Garmin 520 and 820 and older. It's amazingly bright and detailed. Ray's pictures looked impressive, but except Edge 500 and memory LCD's / BW transflective, nothing is close. All colour screens I've seen in cycle computers are a joke by comparison.
- I'm sure the key to the screen was lots of backlight power, but with a band new 820, a 1 year old 520, and the karoo -- the karoo at mid brightness and maybe too high a setting for a clear 18 degree super sunny day, an edge 820 and 520 at same levels, after a little more than 2 hours the Karoo = 74%, the 820 = 60% and 520 = 65% battery. The 820 and Karoo are brand new so these are probably a little less accurate. The 820 and 520 really should have been on max brightness, but since the Karoo was doing the nav the others were just power readout and maps.
- Touch screen puts Garmin 820 to shame. Seems fully usable with buttons though. I normally control my Edge 520 from buttons on my groupset, and the 820 is frustrating to use touch while riding, but the Karoo amazing
- It's big, and it's heavier. I don't mind. 185g I weighted it in at compared to the 60 for the 820. Nav and maps are important to me and even at this early stage it's amazingly useful. You can see where it's going. I'm still trialing it, but just quickly imported routes made via strava using the heat map. It was giving turn by turn on the route without a sim card install (did that today though, some futzing to select the right carrier)
- Solid Barfly included. Only one rotation direction on the Karoo itself compared to the Edge

So my take away is that this will likely replace my edge 520 and the loaner 820 I have will not enter into the equation. It's probably the first thing I've pre-ordered that I'd feel bad for missing the introductory price. It might not be the right fit for the weight weenies. The garmin mount is removable, so maybe in the future a mount that "bolts" to the bike like the element bolt for those UCI rules to get the rim brake bikes up to 6.8kg?

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