When does the bottom fall out to sell rim brake bikes?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Lelandjt
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by Lelandjt

Working at a shop, on tours, and attending races about half the people I talk to have or want discs and half don't. That tells me rim brakes aren't going anywhere. It will be many years before I can build a disc bike as light and aero as my rim brake bike and probably never at the same price.

by Weenie


thePrince
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

MoPho wrote:nobody "wins or loses" a group ride because of a small weight or aero difference. It's even a reach to say any of this stuff actually makes a difference in racing.


:noidea:

Are you suggesting that weight/aero doesn't make a difference in racing? And "this stuff" being equipment choices can't impact a race?

Maybe you are trying to say that for a lot of amateur racers "better" training would outweigh the weight/aero penalties of a disc brake vs rim?

The reality is as long as physics still apply to cycling, weight/aero choices impact all riders regardless of how much fitness they have attained through training. If I'm in a race and planning a solo attack, I would rather be in a skin suit, with an aero helmet, and yes, rim brakes. No matter my fitness, it's still faster than a floppy over-sized jersey, a vented-out 2005 helmet, and disc brakes.

MoPho
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by MoPho

thePrince wrote: :noidea:

Are you suggesting that weight/aero doesn't make a difference in racing? And "this stuff" being equipment choices can't impact a race?

Maybe you are trying to say that for a lot of amateur racers "better" training would outweigh the weight/aero penalties of a disc brake vs rim?

The reality is as long as physics still apply to cycling, weight/aero choices impact all riders regardless of how much fitness they have attained through training. If I'm in a race and planning a solo attack, I would rather be in a skin suit, with an aero helmet, and yes, rim brakes. No matter my fitness, it's still faster than a floppy over-sized jersey, a vented-out 2005 helmet, and disc brakes.


And you can have all that and then some guy wearing a flappy jersey, heavy steel bike with disc brakes and who didn't eat the hamburger you had for dinner or got more sleep last night will catch and pass you LOL. Point being there are way too many variables to be able to say the tiny amount of drag under certain yaw conditions or the additional 1/2lbs from a disc brake is going to hold you back from winning a race. It certainly didn't stop Kittel or Boonen
Additionally, my point is that the vast majority of riders are not racing and only need to be faster than themselves (if they are trying to improve), the equipment doesn't matter. Many racers seem to think the whole cycling world revolves around their needs :roll:

And we are talking about aero/weight on the bike, not the human who is a much bigger factor in the aero and performance than the bike.


.

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53x12
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by 53x12

toronto-rider wrote:With discs coming in a big way, I dont see any major manufacturers selling rim brake bikes in 3 years.
Once the Pros are all on disc bikes (I presume starting 2019) any high end rim bike will be very hard to sell.
I purchased a Tarmac with Dura Ace end of last year and this year purchased Roval CLX 50 for the bike.
Now with discs comming and once the UCI removes the 6.8 KG weight limit, I am thinking my $9k CDN bike will be worth very little once discs are main stream high end bikes.

So when do you sell your Rim brake bike in order to avoid taking a huge hit in order to buy the same bike in disc form?


Baby steps first. Discs need to take off and become popular among serious roadies. Still hasn't taken off in my neck of the woods. This death of rim brake bikes has been said for sometime. I'm still waiting to see it happen.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."

Berryrice
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:29 am

by Berryrice

MoPho wrote:
thePrince wrote: :noidea:

Are you suggesting that weight/aero doesn't make a difference in racing? And "this stuff" being equipment choices can't impact a race?

Maybe you are trying to say that for a lot of amateur racers "better" training would outweigh the weight/aero penalties of a disc brake vs rim?

The reality is as long as physics still apply to cycling, weight/aero choices impact all riders regardless of how much fitness they have attained through training. If I'm in a race and planning a solo attack, I would rather be in a skin suit, with an aero helmet, and yes, rim brakes. No matter my fitness, it's still faster than a floppy over-sized jersey, a vented-out 2005 helmet, and disc brakes.


And you can have all that and then some guy wearing a flappy jersey, heavy steel bike with disc brakes and who didn't eat the hamburger you had for dinner or got more sleep last night will catch and pass you LOL. Point being there are way too many variables to be able to say the tiny amount of drag under certain yaw conditions or the additional 1/2lbs from a disc brake is going to hold you back from winning a race. It certainly didn't stop Kittel or Boonen
Additionally, my point is that the vast majority of riders are not racing and only need to be faster than themselves (if they are trying to improve), the equipment doesn't matter. Many racers seem to think the whole cycling world revolves around their needs :roll:

And we are talking about aero/weight on the bike, not the human who is a much bigger factor in the aero and performance than the bike.


.


MoPho....Agreed. All this tech talk about weight and aero is fun and folks gets really passionate about it. I was a team mechanic for MTB and Road teams in the 80s and 90s (sometimes in the Mavic Neutral Support car/van/truck too) after I gave up on racing. Conservatively 10% of the riders won 90% of the races. Some guys cared to down the millimeter what the fore/aft/angle/height of their saddle and would chew me out (usually the guys that's weren't the best on the team) was while others almost didn't care. It's the rider be far it the biggest factor....MOST ALL pro bikes are pretty dang nice and it we just begin to split hairs at the high end side. Sure disc brakes are heavier and more non-aero but big factor is the engine. I never thought disc would replace almost all MTB brakes that past decade....it's just a matter of time the same will happen to road bikes. If I was still racing Pro Cat 1 (probably now cat 4/5)- Id be happy with either system.

thePrince
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

MoPho wrote:And you can have all that and then some guy wearing a flappy jersey, heavy steel bike with disc brakes and who didn't eat the hamburger you had for dinner or got more sleep last night will catch and pass you LOL.

Absolutely, happened to me plenty of times :wink:

MoPho wrote:Point being there are way too many variables to be able to say the tiny amount of drag under certain yaw conditions or the additional 1/2lbs from a disc brake is going to hold you back from winning a race. It certainly didn't stop Kittel or Boonen

Agreed there are way too many variables to say what held you back from winning a race. But when look at all the pieces of the puzzle, you mostly make independent decisions on each piece...does this make me faster? So, each racer can make the decision (assuming the industry doesn't make it for us)...do the benefits of disc braking outweigh the aero/weight penalties?

MoPho wrote:Additionally, my point is that the vast majority of riders are not racing and only need to be faster than themselves (if they are trying to improve), the equipment doesn't matter. Many racers seem to think the whole cycling world revolves around their needs :roll:

I agree that there a lot of riders who are not racing, and that even when racing your engine is the biggest factor. But saying the equipment doesn't matter because racers aren't the majority of cyclists doesn't make disc brakes faster or lighter :wink: and more importantly obfuscates the reality that it is definitely in the industry's best interests to sell a boatload of new bicycles with discs.
MoPho wrote:Many racers seem to think the whole cycling world revolves around their needs :roll:

Do you think Specialized is marketing the new Tarmac or Venge to racers? A look at their website says yes...so do those racers, not the whole cycling world, want disc or rim?

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themidge
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by themidge

MoPho wrote:the equipment doesn't matter.

So, why do i need disks so badly again? :wink:
:hello:
Cannondale Supersix 2008 (weight: 7.3kg)
B'twin Triban 540 (in bits)
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MoPho
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by MoPho

thePrince wrote:Agreed there are way too many variables to say what held you back from winning a race. But when look at all the pieces of the puzzle, you mostly make independent decisions on each piece...does this make me faster? So, each racer can make the decision (assuming the industry doesn't make it for us)...do the benefits of disc braking outweigh the aero/weight penalties?


And that is absolutely fine, the problem is that people that race often project their "needs" on others while exaggerating the amount and affect of those "penalties"

I agree that there a lot of riders who are not racing, and that even when racing your engine is the biggest factor. But saying the equipment doesn't matter because racers aren't the majority of cyclists doesn't make disc brakes faster or lighter :wink: and more importantly obfuscates the reality that it is definitely in the industry's best interests to sell a boatload of new bicycles with discs.


By that argument you could say it's in the industries best interest to convince you to buy aero and lightweight bikes (especially with proprietary rim brakes) just the same :wink:


Do you think Specialized is marketing the new Tarmac or Venge to racers? A look at their website says yes...so do those racers, not the whole cycling world, want disc or rim?


They are marketing to racers, wannabe racers and people who just like the look and feel of a race bike. Many people who don't race buy race bikes for the same reason people who don't race cars buy fast cars, it brings them pleasure.




--

themidge wrote:So, why do i need disks so badly again?



Who said you NEED them? :noidea:
You don't need aero or lightweight either :wink:



.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

kgibbo1868 wrote:I personally have no interest in disk brakes and given the choice would chose rim breaks over disks today and for the foreseeable future.


Having just test-ridden a 2018 BMC Teammachine with rim brake Mavic carbon clinchers and mechanical DA9100 when my own bike has both hydraulic disc brakes and eTap, I will have to disagree completely.

I can't say too much about their total stopping power, because that wasn't really in question. The brake feel was just mushy and lacked immediacy. On top of that, while my disc pads make some scraping noises under braking, the Mavic wheels spec'd on this 2018 bike made available just weeks ago...they go "pichoooooooo!" We all know the sound of patterned carbon brake tracks meeting pads. They sound like rockets whizzing by with a doppler effect.

On top of just plain bad dry performance, disc brakes feel the same when the rotors are wet. The only rim brake track that works "OK" in the wet is ENVE's. Disc brakes give you the option of wider tires/rims, less fuss if a rim goes slightly out of true, more aero rim shapes, no heat build-up causing resins to fail, etc.

As for mechanical shifting, since I mentioned it. Hand fatigue is real, especially when you have to manually trim the FD. I'll never go back to something like mech Dura-Ace. Also it's nice having satellite climbing shifters on the tops or drops depending on your use-case.

Pros are already softening their traditionalist / FUD-based stance on disc brakes. And Emonda SLR Disc was raced in the Colorado Classic on a hilly stage because it was right at 6.8kg. Discs will probably be on almost all flat-stage pro bikes in 2 years.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

sawyer wrote:And there is then inevitably compatibility issues, which supports the status quo


You also get compatibility issues with direct-mount rim brake bikes, custom OEM aero solutions, etc.

Don't consider any frame with IS or post mounts. Don't consider any frame with quick-release dropouts.

Right now the only major compatibility questions are in how long your 12x100mm and 12x142mm TAs need to be, and if you need 1.0/1.5/1.75mm thread-pitch. This is NOT a big deal because any frameset should come with compatible TAs. If you want special lightweight TAs you can find a bunch from Shift-Up or RobertAxleProject or wherever.

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53x12
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by 53x12

TobinHatesYou wrote:Discs will probably be on almost all flat-stage pro bikes in 2 years.



We heard that 3 years ago. Still waiting.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."

sawyer
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by sawyer

TobinHatesYou wrote:
sawyer wrote:And there is then inevitably compatibility issues, which supports the status quo


You also get compatibility issues with direct-mount rim brake bikes, custom OEM aero solutions, etc.

Don't consider any frame with IS or post mounts. Don't consider any frame with quick-release dropouts.

Right now the only major compatibility questions are in how long your 12x100mm and 12x142mm TAs need to be, and if you need 1.0/1.5/1.75mm thread-pitch. This is NOT a big deal because any frameset should come with compatible TAs. If you want special lightweight TAs you can find a bunch from Shift-Up or RobertAxleProject or wherever.


Hi - by compatibility issues I meant more that lots of us sit here with one, two, three rim braked bikes and are aware we would not be able use wheels interchangeably, and would be taking on another overhead in maintaining discs
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

sawyer
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by sawyer

53x12 wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:Discs will probably be on almost all flat-stage pro bikes in 2 years.



We heard that 3 years ago. Still waiting.


Indeed, there isn't a whole of braking done on flat stages ... so why pay an aero penalty for something you don't need?
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

sawyer
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by sawyer

LOL at the tired argument in this thread that because the engine is more important we shouldn't worry about smallish differences in equipment.

Ultimately it all helps ... and for many people who ride competitively (from racing, to the sharp end of sportives, to competitive parts of club rides) ... would much rather have whatever advantages they can afford ... and on that basis discs carry a penalty in most situations

The fact that fitness is more important is as well understood as it is irrelevant
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

sawyer wrote:
53x12 wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:Discs will probably be on almost all flat-stage pro bikes in 2 years.



We heard that 3 years ago. Still waiting.


Indeed, there isn't a whole of braking done on flat stages ... so why pay an aero penalty for something you don't need?


Smooth rim profiles actually improve aerodynamics, so the aero penalty of discs rotors only comes when strong winds are coming in at large yaw angles. Also braking is incredibly important in the peloton even on flat stages in tight corners where the accordion effect occurs...and of course when fighting wet conditions.

And of course the wild card is this would allow a safe switch to tubeless clincher wheels.

by Weenie


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