Advice from Experienced Campy Wrenches Please!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

Calnago wrote:@colnagoc59: It's not comepletely clear to me if you you're using a Campy chain properly connected with a pin that gets peened, hence not removeable, or if you're using a quick link in the system allowing you to remove the chain for "thorough cleaning" like you wanted. In any case, I don't think that's the issue, although it would be good to see a pic of your chain length when it is in the small ring up front and the smallest cog at the back showing the gap between the upper pulley cage and the lower pulley... I find that a chain on the longer side is better than a chain on the shorter side of things...
Image

And yes, you should toss that piece of cheese of a derailleur hanger, especially since it's been bent around a few times already and get a Wheels Manufacturing replacement asap regardless of whether this is the ultimate issue or not.

Cervelos of the past had very short chainstays, like 399mm, when campy's min recommendation was 405mm. But I think your Cervelo has 410mm chainstays which should be ok.

It doesn't sound like you're completely familiar with dialing things in, but your questions about which way to tighten or loosen the cable and it's effect do indicate that your understanding of how it works is correct, so that's good. I don't know if you're using bars with internal cable routing or external and what kinds of bends are present. I hope the cable routing doesn't involved over the top and through the top tube routing like Cervelos of the past. That is such an awkward cable routing and just makes dialing in a mechanical system even more difficult. I can't stress enough how important clean, smooth cable runs with as few and gradual bends as possible is for a perfectly functioning mechanical system. With electric it doesn't matter as long as the current flows. I suspect your issue is a combination of friction in the cables and that cheeselike hanger that doesn't seem to stay straight at this point. First step is definitely to get a new hanger, and you seem to be on that.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is if you have the derailleur upper pulley as close to the cassette as possible. You do this by adjusting the "H" screw when the chain is on the smallest ring up front and the largest cog at the back. Some people might call this screw the "B" screw but the new campy derailleurs have two screws, one at the derailleur hanger stop and another at the lower pivot of the derailleur itself (the "H" screw). Ideally, you'd like to get the distance between the upper pulley and teeth of the cassette as close as possible (5-7mm)... note that the distance shown here between the teeth is even less than 5mm, and this is with an 11/23 cassette, the most difficult combo to get this distance right. Even Campy states that with the 11/23 cassette it may not be possible to get it that close and it's normal. But if you can it's better...
Image

And a little more of the pic above to put things in context as to what you're looking at....
Image


The cable routing exits shifter runs in groove in front of bars (fizik Cyrano 00) then they bend gradually to ports on down tube then next time you see cable is under BB then it exits thru chain stay and loops to RD. Not sure what the b screw does where it contacts hanger?
Checked "H" setting looks good will get picture for chain length and post.

colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

I also wanted to mention bike has also developed a ticking noise when standing on pedals and riding. It seems ticking and maybe shifting issues might have started around the same time. So today I decided to work on bike to check RD setup and maybe find tick. So I took chain off of crank to eliminate rear cassette as being issue with tick and pressed done on each pedal while holding bike with hand it would tick then I would do other side it would seem to tick back in place. So I decided to remove crank and put antiseize on chain ring bolts and grease cups (Campy BBright cups) just to see if tick would go away. Well upon further inspection I noticed drive side Campy cup is not sitting flush against the frame, one side is flush other side is not by about 1-1.5mm from frame. I will be honest I know nothing about Press Fit BB and how they should look when installed but I think the cup should be pressed against frame all the way around. Also the inside cup where Campy bearing sits you can see where bearing scuffed it. I'm thinking this might have something to do with the shifting as well? I have searched this thread and read very good posts about PF BB and how to loctite the cups into place and also to use some compound on outer cage of bearing so they do not creak as well once installed. My question is does this mean the BB shell on R5 is not or was not faced, if you can even face carbon I'm not sure and could opening be damaged beyond repair?

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Calnago
Posts: 5788
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

The gap between your cups and the BB shell means your cups are not seated properly and are moving in the carbon shell. That's due to a poor installation, probably with no retaining compound. Or worse, maybe they used grease, which exacerbates the issue, although it can make it quiet for a while. The wearing away of the anodization on the inside of the cup is a result of the cups not being firmly in place to begin with. The whole "system" is moving against each other and the bearings have already worn away some of the anodization. The ticking is most likely due to there being enough play in the whole thing that the cranks can move laterally enough to take up the 0.2mm gap between the right side bearing and the drive side clip. The clicking may be the bearing hitting that clip. If everything was tight and in place and not worn, it is extremely difficult to get enough lateral play in the crank and the bearing never touches that clip in normal use. That clip is there to prevent more than 0.2-0.25mm of movement and the wavy washer ensures that the right side bearing is butted up against the right side cups face giving the correct chainline etc. You need new cups (as evidenced by the anodization worn away on the inside), and you need these installed correctly the next time. However, this is a completely separate issue from your rear shifting issue and would not be a contributing factor. A proper press and drifts will help ensure that the cups go in straight and aligned next time. Loctite 609 is the retaining compound you want to use along with Loctite 7649 as the primer.

Of course, the ticking noise may be coming from somewhere else as well, but given what you describe about the BB situation, all of what I said above still applies and I would replace those cups and start over with proper install.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

Calnago here are pics of cable routing and chain in small- small.
Attachments
WIN_20170814_20_30_46_Pro (5).jpg
WIN_20170814_20_48_38_Pro (4).jpg

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Calnago
Posts: 5788
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ha... a little more pic would be nice. It's hard to get an overall idea of what's going on from those pics. Is that gap on the chain pic about 10mm or so? That should be fine.

The cable routing thankfully does not go through the top tube at least, but it's hard to tell anything from that pic. I kind of like to cross the cables inside the downtube where possible, meaning the cable housing from the right hand shifter enters the left side of the downtube and the derailleur cable from the left hand shifter enters the downtube on the right side.. That would certainly ease up those bends around the headtube your rear derailleur housing is contorting to. Also, underneath the BB is a place where friction can occur, especially if you don't have liners on the cables and use sticky sports drinks that drip down there. The other place is the exit from the rear chainstay. Sometimes in those last few centimeters, the frame design is such that there is rubbing somewhere on the inside of the stays as the cable makes its way out the rear hole. If that's the case, I'd get some liners in there that will allow the cable to move as freely as possible. Ok... I think you have all the info I can give at this point. Good luck.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

Calnago wrote:The gap between your cups and the BB shell means your cups are not seated properly and are moving in the carbon shell. That's due to a poor installation, probably with no retaining compound. Or worse, maybe they used grease, which exacerbates the issue, although it can make it quiet for a while. The wearing away of the anodization on the inside of the cup is a result of the cups not being firmly in place to begin with. The whole "system" is moving against each other and the bearings have already worn away some of the anodization. The ticking is most likely due to there being enough play in the whole thing that the cranks can move laterally enough to take up the 0.2mm gap between the right side bearing and the drive side clip. The clicking may be the bearing hitting that clip. If everything was tight and in place and not worn, it is extremely difficult to get enough lateral play in the crank and the bearing never touches that clip in normal use. That clip is there to prevent more than 0.2-0.25mm of movement and the wavy washer ensures that the right side bearing is butted up against the right side cups face giving the correct chainline etc. You need new cups (as evidenced by the anodization worn away on the inside), and you need these installed correctly the next time. However, this is a completely separate issue from your rear shifting issue and would not be a contributing factor. A proper press and drifts will help ensure that the cups go in straight and aligned next time. Loctite 609 is the retaining compound you want to use along with Loctite 7649 as the primer.

Of course, the ticking noise may be coming from somewhere else as well, but given what you describe about the BB situation, all of what I said above still applies and I would replace those cups and start over with proper install.


Thanks for your advice Calnago even though I did not want to hear it. I read a good post of yours where you said to use aquaproof on the bearings outside cage where it contacts cups is this still sound advice in this procedure? Not sure what bike mechanic used buy it is white in color and dry around outside edge of cups. Just so I understand the BB shell is already faced from factory or might this need to be done? Also would a BBinfinite BB be better than using Campy cups in the Cervelo frame.

Should of went with the C60 or never sold my C59 this Cervelo is nice but seems kind of fragile to me. Thanks again.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I would never have said to use Aquaproof paste anywhere near the bearings. If I did, I need to correct that wherever it is. What I believe I said, is that I've used it for my C60 between the outer surfaces of the cups, and the BB shell (in Colnagos case that is the inner surface of the Threadfit cups). But the outer races of the bearings themselves and the inner surfaces of the cups they come in contact with should just have grease.

I don't know what the white stuff is your mechanic used... but you should ask. In any case it looks like the cups are wallowing around a bit in there. I don't work on Cervelos much, I own a P3 but it's a threaded BB. Yours could probably benefit from the Loctite and primer treatment, but do use new cups since they are worn on the inside at a minimum.

As for facing the BB shell, yes, the faces need to be square to each other and free of paint. But without threads, that's a job that really has to be done at the factory, so you just have to assume that they are in fact faced and square. Here's where a proper press and drifts really come in handy. Because for a pressfit application, even if the faces of the BB shell aren't perfectly square, and you use a retaining compound, when you press in both cups the drifts inside will ensure that they are square to each other, and you can stop just shy of "jamming" them into unsquared faces and be confident that the retaining compound will do it's job and keep them put, square and aligned.

Oh, and as for the 3rd party BB's, some are better than others I suppose, but I really do prefer using the campy cups, especially after measuring the tolerances of them, etc. They fit the bearings perfectly. When pressfit first came out and people didn't install them correctly (they still don't), it spawned a whole little cottage industry of after market BB's. I've got nothing against them really, but sometimes they can create problems of their own as well, especially when trying to get them out.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ColnagoEPQ
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:32 pm

by ColnagoEPQ

I installed a BB Infinite Bottom Bracket in my son's Cervelo S3 along with Campagnolo Super Record. We have had zero problems and a noise free ride.

Cervelo rear derailleur hangers (in my experience) have not been the most robust parts. Wheels Manufacturing replacement parts are the way to go to give a solid and repeatable rear derailleur location.

colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

Calnago wrote:I would never have said to use Aquaproof paste anywhere near the bearings. If I did, I need to correct that wherever it is. What I believe I said, is that I've used it for my C60 between the outer surfaces of the cups, and the BB shell (in Colnagos case that is the inner surface of the Threadfit cups). But the outer races of the bearings themselves and the inner surfaces of the cups they come in contact with should just have grease.

I don't know what the white stuff is your mechanic used... but you should ask. In any case it looks like the cups are wallowing around a bit in there. I don't work on Cervelos much, I own a P3 but it's a threaded BB. Yours could probably benefit from the Loctite and primer treatment, but do use new cups since they are worn on the inside at a minimum.

As for facing the BB shell, yes, the faces need to be square to each other and free of paint. But without threads, that's a job that really has to be done at the factory, so you just have to assume that they are in fact faced and square. Here's where a proper press and drifts really come in handy. Because for a pressfit application, even if the faces of the BB shell aren't perfectly square, and you use a retaining compound, when you press in both cups the drifts inside will ensure that they are square to each other, and you can stop just shy of "jamming" them into unsquared faces and be confident that the retaining compound will do it's job and keep them put, square and aligned.

Oh, and as for the 3rd party BB's, some are better than others I suppose, but I really do prefer using the campy cups, especially after measuring the tolerances of them, etc. They fit the bearings perfectly. When pressfit first came out and people didn't install them correctly (they still don't), it spawned a whole little cottage industry of after market BB's. I've got nothing against them really, but sometimes they can create problems of their own as well, especially when trying to get them out.


Sorry, I might have misunderstood the post I read. Thanks for the clear up. I will post back once parts come in and I install them. Again thanks everyone for the input very appreciated.

colnagoc59
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:23 pm

by colnagoc59

Just wanted to follow up with fix: received new Campy cups removed old ones and pressed in new ones with loctite 609 and primer. Issue seems to be resolved since riding bike multiple times no noise.

As for shifting replaced original R5 hanger with wheel manufacturing rear derailleur hanger and redid whole rear derailleur set up going step by step following instruction manual. Bike is shifting perfectly now, like you would expect Campy too. Just wanted to thank everybody for the great advice much appreciated, very helpful. Happy riding!

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