Colnago C60 - ultra torque click

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

That's a good question regarding the removal of Campy cups from the Threadfit cups. I have not had occasion to do that yet. But since you've used Loctite (609 Retaining compound or equivalent I presume?), if it was me I'd use the appropriate tool to try punching them out with the threadfit cups in place. It will likely take a good blow, but providing you have the right tool that butts up evenly against the inner edge of the cups, I think it should be fine. Unscrewing the threadfit cups with the Campy cups in place would likely not be possible with the tool since it is not deep enough I don't believe to go over the Campy cups and also get a good grip on the Threadfit cups at the same time. Plus, if you did get them out with the cups still intact, you'd still be faced with the same issue in getting them out, in having to hold the threadfit cups securely while you pound out the cups. I've never used heat to break the bond, as that would likely destroy the paint as well.

Regarding your second question as to using the Aquaproof Paste between the bearing cup and the outer surface of the bearing... NO, keep that away from the bearings themselves, it is not designed in any way to be a grease for bearings and you do not want it getting your bearings, so best to keep it clear of that area. Just use a good grease. I've used Phil Woods Waterproof Grease, not that thick but seems to work fine. And for my C60 I just used a marine grease called Corrosion Block by NLGI, picked it up at West Coast Marine. Or, just swish around the grease that campy puts in the new cups... there's probably enough there to spread it onto the inner surfaces quite nicely. There's not a big gap so it just needs a thin film.
Just use the Aquaproof Paste between the new cups outersurface and the inner surface of the Threadfit cups that they are being pressed into. Even thought Colnago recommends a dry fit, and I presume with new cups this may very well be just fine, I opted to go with a little Aquaproof Paste as well, and it's been good. But like I said in my original build thread, at the first sign of any creak or noise from there, I would be pulling it all apart and using Loctite Retaining Compound 609 with primer, but so far so good. Knock on wood.

After this thread I'm inclined to pull apart my C60 crank and BB just to see how things are doing down there, but I've not heard nary a peep since install last Fall, and it seems super solid.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


xcnick
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

I’m having a very similar problem here- C60, UT cups just started a horrendous creak/click/crack on out of the saddle steep climbs. It’s a 2nd hand frame and had the BB installed so I don’t know how they’ve fitted them.

Could someone clarify whether I should loctite the cups in (like you do on carbon shells) or fit dry?

And do the threadfit cups use a special tool or is it just a normal external threaded BB cup tool (shimano etc)

HTS888
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:19 pm

by HTS888

Right

1. Calnago - many thanks for all your posts on everything Colnago especially on the C60 which inspired me to build one which I have just completed, I love it, here is a pic

2. I am having the same BB clicking issue, the cups were fitted dry originally and subsequently a click and creak developed, I have had it refitted by a highly recommended campag head of tech here is the UK, using everything you have mentioned including Loctite 7649/641 after I took the bike out for a 30-mile ride and it was fine, However, 15 miles in to a 100 mile ride over the weekend the click returned, I am really frustrated.

What else can I do?

Start with new frame cups?

replace the Campag cups?

All help appreciated here

thanks

Stew
IMG_3174.jpg

ODC
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:40 am

by ODC

HTS888 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:44 pm
Right

1. Calnago - many thanks for all your posts on everything Colnago especially on the C60 which inspired me to build one which I have just completed, I love it, here is a pic

2. I am having the same BB clicking issue, the cups were fitted dry originally and subsequently a click and creak developed, I have had it refitted by a highly recommended campag head of tech here is the UK, using everything you have mentioned including Loctite 7649/641 after I took the bike out for a 30-mile ride and it was fine, However, 15 miles in to a 100 mile ride over the weekend the click returned, I am really frustrated.

What else can I do?

Start with new frame cups?

replace the Campag cups?

All help appreciated here
I would start to think something is wrong with you're frame...
Have you checked you're seat post, pedals and quick releases from you're wheels?

HTS888
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:19 pm

by HTS888

ODC wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:58 pm
HTS888 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:44 pm
Right

1. Calnago - many thanks for all your posts on everything Colnago especially on the C60 which inspired me to build one which I have just completed, I love it, here is a pic

2. I am having the same BB clicking issue, the cups were fitted dry originally and subsequently a click and creak developed, I have had it refitted by a highly recommended campag head of tech here is the UK, using everything you have mentioned including Loctite 7649/641 after I took the bike out for a 30-mile ride and it was fine, However, 15 miles in to a 100 mile ride over the weekend the click returned, I am really frustrated.

What else can I do?

Start with new frame cups?

replace the Campag cups?

All help appreciated here
I would start to think something is wrong with you're frame...
Have you checked you're seat post, pedals and quick releases from you're wheels?
[/quote

Thanks ODC

I have checked the skewers, refitted the pedals (Speedplay) and will check the seat post to eliminate

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corky
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by corky

Try putting in 2 wave washers in the NDS cup.......

AJS914
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by AJS914

Is the click in question every revolution, only out of the saddle, etc?

All of my recent bottom bracket clicks have been something else. The last one was a quick release.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ok... sorry you guys are experiencing an annoying click/creak. It MUST be eliminated. It SHALL be eliminated...

Methodically eliminating all the possibilities one by one is often my favorite approach, mostly for the educational value so I definitely know where the sound originated. By that, I will look at one thing, and that only, do what I can to make sure it is not the problem, test it, then continue doing that until I've found whatever the cause of the noise is. It's already been mentioned to look at things like seatpost, pedals and skewers. All good places. While we're here, for the seatpost collar, I like to have a thin layer of grease, not carbon paste, between the inside of the collar itself and the outside of the frame's seattube where it clamps. These surfaces you do not want friction on, you want them to be able to slide uniformly against each other as you tighten the seatpost clamping bolt. Where you want carbon paste is on the inside surface of the seattube and the outersurface of the seatpost itself, as this is where you don't want slipping. Skewers, just make sure the operation mechanism is smooth etc., a little oil doesn't hurt if it's all dried out or has seen a lot of foul weather use. No grease/oil on the dropout surfaces or clamping surfaces of the skewer nuts however. And finally, pedals... make sure the threads have a good amount of grease on them and are sufficiently tight. Of course, look at everything else while you're at it.

Now, assuming you're sure the noise is coming from the BB area. Here's what you need to do, or at least what I would do. If I didn't build it, then I really have no idea how things were installed and I'd usually just pull it all apart and do it again.

First step would be to remove the cranks. If you've got Cult bearings, they probably just need a cleaning out as there's no grease involved, just a light oil. I'll blow compressed air in them, with some degreaser etc., flush it all out with water until they spin like a dental tool. I don't remove them from the crank for this cleaning. I've yet to see a set of these bearings that I've needed to replace. A few drops of synthetic light oil is all the lube I put in after cleaning.

If you're using Chorus bearings, or even Record USB bearings, there's a greater chance that the bearings need replacing, especially if you've used the Chorus bearings through a nasty wet winter.

But let's assume the bearings are in good shape for now. Look at the inside surfaces of the Campy cups where the bearings seat. Can you see any signs of worn off anodization? If so, espeically if the wear is concentrated in one area, that's a good sign that maybe the cups weren't installed perfectly straight to begin with. So, that might cause some "creaking" as the bearings, which are a slipfit against the cups, move back and forth a small amount. But the "clicking", assuming a once a revolution type of clicking, is most often the result (at least in my experience) of the crank moving laterally and stopping when the drive side bearing "hits" the ends of the retaining clip in the drive side cup. The cups and/or bearings are too loose and worn and the crank is sliding laterally enough to cause an audible "click" every revolution. You can probably replicate that click by pushing quickly and firmly against the non drive side crank, towards the BB, compressing the wavy washer, and listening for the drive side bearing to hit against the ends of the retaining clip on the other side. In normal pedaling with everything in good shape, you won't hear this as lateral movement is minimal at best, but there is about 0.2mm of movement built in by design. The wavy washer on the non drive side provides the necessary preload.

So, what to do...
If you've noticed any wear spots in the cups from anodization, replace them, don't even think about not replacing them... they're not that expensive. And there's a good chance that was your issue.

Removing the Campy cups can be a little tricky, especially if you have the EPS sleeve installed (it will likely have to be destroyed in order to get at the backside flange of the cups for removal. If you don't know how to remove the cups, I'm sure I've talked and shown it elsewhere, but for now I'm just getting an answer down here for general info.

What about the Threadfit cups...
This could be a source of creaks as well, but unless it is coming loose, or was installed a little loose at the factory, not too likely. But since you've not been able to source it successfully so far, to be sure at this point I would remove the Threadfit cups from the frame, you'll need the tool that fits those cups, and apply antiseize (I use Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste) to the threads and reinsert them and use a torque wrench to make sure they are torqued properly to the frame. That's all you should need to do there.

Reinstall everything...
I know Colnago recommends a dry fit install of the Campy cups into the Threadfit cups, and given how good the tolerances are on both these surfaces, I wouldn't see a problem with that. In my case, I still used a little Morgan Blue AquaProof Paste just to prevent any corrosion (these parts rarely need removing) over a long period of time. But the anodization itself should really help prevent that as well if you installed them dry. But whether you go with a dry install, Aquaproof Paste, or Loctite 609 plus primer 7649, the most important aspect right now is to ensure those cups go in straight, parrallel and perfectly aligned. How do you ensure that... with a good press is really the best assurance you've got and I think this is where a lot of installs (on any pressfit application) can go horribly wrong. I now have the appropriate Campy BB press which I absolutely love (the drifts are massive and fill then entire bearing inner cup), but I didn't have it when I built my own C60. However, I still had a very good Wheels Manufacturing Press with appropriate drifts that fit INSIDE the cups and press against the bearing seats themselves, allowing virtually no side play when you press in both cups. They end up square to each other. What I've seen, even in good shops, is the use of a big flat surface (maybe the surface on the Park BB/Headset Press) just to butt up against just the outside edge of the cups and just press it all in. Or worse, a long bolt with some big huge flatwashers from the hardware store. And this (cringe) may or may not work ok in a lot of cases, but I just don't like doing that on principle, because there seems to be so much more margin for error.


If you use Loctite 609, be sure to apply the primer 7649 to the mating surfaces first. But same principle. The cups need to go in straight and parrallel.
But don't use grease... between the outer surface of the cups and the inner surface of the threadfit cups. You do not want movement there once the cups are straight and parrallel. I know a mechanic in a Cannondale shop who will use grease, saying... if they don't remove the BB and grease it up, they get way too many back very quickly with creaks. But grease just masks the probem, and keeps it quiet a bit longer. And if faciliates movement (and associated wear) which you don't want, at least not there.

Inside of the campy cups... where the bearings fit... HERE is where you want grease. It's a slip fit so it's not like you pack it full, but at least put some good grease on the inside of the cups, and the outer race of the bearings before you reinstall. Also, a little grease on the teeth of the hirth joing won't hurt, but it's so tight when torqued down that there shoudn't be any movement there. I'll also put a thin layer of grease on the washer of the hirth bolt, and on the threads I use either the Morgan Blue paste or I've used a little Loctite 222 (before I started experimenting with the Morgan Blue paste) just to prevcent corrosion etc.

I torque that nut to 50Nm (in betweeen the min 42 and max of 60), then make sure the C-clip is installed correctly. And voila, that's about it. At least your BB should be creak and click free now.
If not, then you need to start looking elsewhere. Where? Everywhere. Check chainring bolts. Also, if you're using a chain catcher, make sure it's not touching somewhere on the chainring with each revolution. Just everything... check it. The chain is a good source of, not so much a click, or a creak, but more a grinding crunchy sound if it's all dirty with grit etc. Clean it. Remove your cassette to clean off the freehub. Who knows where these awful noised lurk. But if you hear them, they must be erradicated.

Ok... that's my morning coffee post of the day. Hope it helps.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

HTS888
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:19 pm

by HTS888

Quick update

Checked seat post, seemed OK, went for ride 40 miles, all quiet until 18 miles in then it started to click again, how can this be? how can it be after a certain number of miles, heat maybe?

Corky - thanks for the tip

AJS914 - yes also click when out of saddle

Calnago - so grateful for the very detailed reply which I will have to get the work carried out as I don't have the necessary tools or skill set!!

jmagoulas
Posts: 129
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Location: Connecticut USA

by jmagoulas

When I had my C60 I also had a little creak. Come to find out it was the seatpost clamp bolt. Lubed with Ti prep and all was good ever since. Just another easy thing to check out. Also make sure adequet torque is applied to the cups and bolt. Those cups definetly take a little muscle to get up to spec.

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corky
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Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

I recently had a creak click g going on that ccurreeed when honking on the bars and knew it was coming from the front end, tracked it down to the stem cap........ran a smear of grease on the inside of the stem and again one nderside of the. Cap....and voila, no more noise.

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Mockenrue
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by Mockenrue

I can't really add anything of note except to say that I recently helped a friend out with a Record EPS equipped C60 he bought new last year. It developed an annoying click/tick similar to that described here after around 4000km and I got rid of it by cleaning and re-greasing the cups, bearing race outers and hirth joint/bolt exactly as Calnago describes. I don't think the shop who built the bike had torqued the bolt properly either.

xcnick
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

Yes big thanks to Calnago for the detailed info, very helpful. Mine is out of the saddle so eliminates seatpost etc. It’s a harsh noise and only starts after a while like the post above. However I’ve just found the free hub body bearings knackered in my fulcrum Quattro carbons so I’ll replace all the bearings and test. It’s such a harsh noise that I think this could well be the problem. I hope so anyway!

Valbrona
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by Valbrona

Calnago - I like your style.

But remind me never to buy a Campag crank ... unless it is going into a threaded BB shell.

The big failing with Campag press-fit is its dependence on aluminium cups, because of course if the faces of a BB shell are not parallel then you very likely gonna hit trouble ... but in a way you would not if the cups were plastic/deformable. Of course, its not so easy to face a BB30/PF30/BB386 shell, and it does not occur to manufacturers that someone might want to put a Campag crank into their BB30/PF30/BB386 frame.

Colnago thread-fit seems to address this issue quite well.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Actually Valbrona, I think the alloy campy cups are a big plus. The tolerances inside are pretty much 36.98-37.00mm... just try to get that kind of tolerance from any carbon shell. That's why we have the delrin PF30 today, because BB30 requires tolerances that were just too hard to maintain in a carbon shell. Anyway, pressfit applications are here to stay it looks like.

The issue you raise about surfaces being faced are very real however... that's why when I got my C60 I just had to remove the Threadfit cups to satisfy myself that the surfaces the cups were threaded into were indeed faced properly. And they were. So that satisfied me, but it's also why I decided to punch out out the headset cups, because the lower bearing, while passable, didn't seem perfectly smooth to me. So out came the headset cups, and while the actual unpainted frame gets its headtube faced at both ends, it gets painted before the headset cups get pressed in, and in my case there was a ridge of dried paint on one side that could easily skew the cups when they were pressed in. So a facing of the headtube made things right and keeps me satisfied that I likely won't have an issue with that headset for a very long time, if ever. Not saying that it wouldn't have been fine if I didn't face it, but doing it satisfied me that it was then perfect.

So what do you do when you have a pressfit frame that you really can't face with tools available, even facing tools. There are no threads to act as guides, and often the frame design is such that you are simply not going to, or can't, take a facing tool to the edges... look at some Pinarellos for example. Here's where a really good press like the Campy one comes into play. First a step back to describe what happens when you screw some Campy cups (or any cups for that matter) into a properly faced threaded BB shell, such as a C59 for example (these most always need facing by the way, simply due to the paint). Anyway, the threads of a BB shell are relatively fine, yet loose enough that once the cups edges get close to the frame's shell, the surfaces of the cups will settle in on the square surface as you torque it down. All good. Job done. Now suppose you're pressing in some cups into a shell that also wants faced surfaces but you're not really sure if they're all that square since it's got gobs of paint all over the edges. Well that's where a really good press, with drifts that fill the cavities of where the bearings seat will be able to press the two cups in square even if it can't rely completely on the edges of the shell. So, as I press the cups in, I finish off firmly but not so much that the cups move away from their aligned position as dictated bye the drifts in place versus being flattened completely against the surfaces of the frame itself, which hopefully are square and faced, but might not be. If you were to just use a couple big flat washers and a long bolt affair against the outside edges of the cups, who knows how aligned those cups are really going to be relative to one another at the end of it all.

Here's a pic of the Campy BB Press Tool...
Image

By the way, I also have two Campy installs on Trek BB90 shells (all carbon, no alloy) that are completely silent and trouble free as well. Trek supplies good adapter kits for most cranks you might want to use with BB90 (30mm spindles excepted), and as long as the install is done methodically and carefully, they seem to work just fine as well.

Lots of good ideas in the posts above as to other things to look at as well. You just never know where you're going to find that offending creak, click or annoying sound.

:beerchug:
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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