Colnago C60 - ultra torque click

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
wedgie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:41 pm

by wedgie

I built my C60 with Campagnolo Chorus just over a year ago. Bottom bracket perfectly within Campagnolo recommendations, fitted the bottom bracket cups exactly as recommended by Campagnolo - loctite, primer, proper press fit tool with drifts, all good.
First few rides were great, silent.
Then, initially only when out of the saddle, an irritating click every revolution. I removed the cranks, re-greased the bearings, reassembled, and silent again for maybe 200km.
The click returned after about 100km, so I removed the cranks again, re-greased bearing-cup interface again, silence again for another 100km and then it returned. It's worse when out of the saddle but also when seated and pedalling under load.
So now I'm having to remove and re-grease the inside of the cups every couple of rides because the click is driving me mad. The bearings are super smooth when I remove the cranks but I've noticed a bit of wear on the anodising on the inside of the drive side cup. I've tried different types of grease, but none have eliminated the click for long. The cranks are torqued correctly, wave washer and spring clip fitted as they should be.
The noise is definitely caused by movement of the bearing in the cup. I can occasionally simulate the noise by pushing the non-drive crank towards the bottom bracket. I removed the spring temporarily to ensure that it wasn't the cause, but the noise was still there.
I'm 70kg, and would say I have a pretty smooth pedal action.
Any remedies for this click?

by Weenie


c60rider
Posts: 240
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by c60rider

Doesn't matter what your riding style smooth or ragged it shouldn't click. When you say you've regreased the bearings have you totally degreased them first, perhaps used a thin teflon spray like GT85 to drive out any water, let them dry then regreased them? It's normal for the anodising on the inside of the bearing cup to have some marks on it as that's normally the bearing being squeezed into the cup as it's supposed to be tight.

Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

I had similar symptoms with my record crank. What solved the problem for me was heavily greasing the bolt, particularly around the shoulders/head and the washer. Re-installed and silence since.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

em3
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Location: NYC

by em3

...in edition to whatMr Gib indicates, make sure to also grease the teeth on the Hirth Joint. And as an additional check, u might consider removing and reseating the bearings. It sounds like you have done everything else correctly, especially the use of Loctite, on the initial install, etc
______________

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bikerjulio
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Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

Tell me the sequence you used in fitting the spring clip. Because you have the classic "missing clip" sound. Or in your case possibly "improperly installed clip"
sound.

If the clip were correctly installed you would not be able to move the crank laterally more than a small fraction of a mm. Undetectable on the bikes I have.

Are the holes for the clip worn?

I can only see one other possibility.

Have the bearings ever been removed from the cranks?

ie is this a new crankset? or used with an unknown history?

How about the cups?
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Anodization worn. Wear on cups. Replace them. Chorus bearings are good for about one wet winter, and not that expensive. I'd replace them too while you're at it. Also, and this is unique to the C60, when the Campy cups are removed, make sure the Threadfit BB cups are torqued properly tight. I used Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste on both the threads of the Threadfit cups and the interface between the Campy cups and the Threadfit cups. Since you can replicate the sound by pushing the crank laterally, my guess it is, in fact, the Campy cups, or maybe a combo of a loose Threadfit cup as well. I also suspect that maybe the cups, even though you used a proper press etc., got ever so slightly askew when pressing in and since you used a retaining compound, that was it. Normally I'd say good for you for doing that and if the cups are perfectly aligned when pressed in, they will stay that way. In this case, my guess is that they are slightly off and this is also what could cause the premature wear on the anodization.
Colnago actually recommends a dry install of the cups and i think that would be perfectly fine as well given how good and round both the Threadfit cups and the Campy cups are. So, I would either do that or use the Morgan Blue stuff I mentioned. Basically it's a high adhesion anti seize kind of product. Good luck.

Edit: All the stuff here also assumes that you're dead sure the click is coming from the BB area. Sure sounds like it is, but I think we've all been fooled before when finding some obnoxioius little thing elsewhere that was overlooked. And if you used something like Loctite 609 as the retaining compound, be sure to scrape all the residue off the inside of the Threadfit cups before you install new ones. And Exacto knife is good for this.
Last edited by Calnago on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Imaking20
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by Imaking20

Sounds like you've followed the typical advice on this site and still run into issues that have plagued me. Ill be very interested to hear what solution you find.
Current:
T2

Retired:
Blue | Project C6.0 | Felt AR FRD | Colnago C59 NERO | 2014 S-Works Tarmac | S-Works Venge | Wilier Cento Uno SL | Tarmac SL2

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Imaking20: are you still having issues with yours?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

c60rider wrote:...It's normal for the anodising on the inside of the bearing cup to have some marks on it as that's normally the bearing being squeezed into the cup as it's supposed to be tight.
The bearings in the cups are not tight, they can slide in quite easily by hand, perfect fit. Only way the anodization of the cups would wear off is from repeated movement between the outer race of the bearing and the inside of the cups but under normal circumstances (cups properly aligned with each other) the grease should prevent that.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

Calnago wrote:
c60rider wrote:...It's normal for the anodising on the inside of the bearing cup to have some marks on it as that's normally the bearing being squeezed into the cup as it's supposed to be tight.
The bearings in the cups are not tight, they can slide in quite easily by hand, perfect fit. Only way the anodization of the cups would wear off is from repeated movement between the outer race of the bearing and the inside of the cups but under normal circumstances (cups properly aligned with each other) the grease should prevent that.


I'll certainly bow to greater knowledge than me on this as my experience is based on 2009 super record, 2011 record and brand new P2M NG. The cups in the super record and record are different materials and the marks as such on the super record are from getting the cranks in and out. They've never been slide in easy by hand and when trying to remove them they've always had to be wrestled out even when one side has come out so not just down to the hirth joint locked together. I remove them at least annually. The record cups have been far worse and the drive side has marked up quite a lot. Whether this has been caused by me having to wrestle them in and out it's possible. Both are fitted into threaded bbs and both remain incredibly smooth and silent once in. They've got 1000s of miles on them so pretty impressive overall. Historically I've only ever used a thin oil in between the cups and the outer of the bearings so I'm interested to see how the morgan blue works now I've just started using that.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@C60rider: yes, the cranks do need a little "wiggling" to get in and out of the cups for sure but that is because the tolerances are so close that they have to be perfectly square to just slide in with no wiggle. That's hard to do when pulling or pushing on one half of the crank hence a slight wiggling gets them to slide right in.
Also, I'd definitely use a thicker grease between the outer races of the bearings and the inside of the cups, like the consistency of the grease that comes already applied to the insides of new cups. Oil is just too thin and would quickly get washed away and that may be why the scoring is occurring.
Also, when I mention Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste, that does NOT go anywhere near the bearings. It goes in the interface between the cups and the frame (in the case of a pressfit application) and if you're using a threaded BB it would go on the threads of the cup and the frame shell, just as a copper based antiseize would.
Since you said you were using a threaded BB, has it been faced properly to your knowledge? That alone can make a big difference in just how perfectly those two cups, once torqued up, will be aligned with each other.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

c60rider
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by c60rider

Thanks for the detailed reply. I know the one frame which is a Look was perfectly faced as it was done in the factory and I got the dealer to check it in front of me alongside every other thread and they didn't have to do anything to it. The other frame I have no idea but the cups always thread in most the way by hand and there was a nice alloy surface to the face rather than painted which suggests it was faced. Again once the cranks are in it's super smooth and have been silent all these years.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Chasing the threads is very different than facing. The facing operation ensures that both surfaces of each side of the BB shell are perfectly square to each other. The only way to ensure that is to put the facing tools in the BB shell and give it a few turns. There's no way to tell otherwise, although if it's not covered in paint and looks like something was done to the edges it's a pretty safe bet it's probably faced. For example, I've seen C59 BB shells covered in paint, effectively negating the facing that was done at the factory. I always would "face" these shells even though you're really not removing any material, just excess paint which can easily create two sides which are less than perfectly parallel to each other. Also, the threads in BB shells are such that they aren't so tight that they won't allow the cups to "settle" in square against the faces surfaces. It's an important step in the prep of any frame which relies on square faces of the BB shell to be parallel to each other.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

c60rider
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by c60rider

Sorry I don't think I was clear with how I wrote it but it was faced as there was clear signs of it having originally been painted on the face of the bottom bracket and that paint then removed to reveal the alloy of the shell. I've never had it checked that they're perfectly parallel and not got the tooling myself to do that as I just couldn't justify the cost for the little use I would put it to. The only problem with them is just getting the cranks out, once the one side has been wrestled out I just put a block through the bottom bracket and tap on other half of the hirth joint to get the other side out.

wedgie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:41 pm

by wedgie

Thanks for all the detailed advice. I definitely think that he noise is coming from movement at the bearing - cup interface. The bearings are perfectly smooth, well greased, with no visible wear on the outer race surface. I think the best way forward will be to replace the cups, perhaps fitting the new ones with Morgan Blue aqua proof paste rather than loctite.

@Calnago, do you think its easier to remove the press fit cups with a headset cup removal tool while the thread fit cups are still in the frame, or remove the thread fit cups first before removing the press fit cups? Also, do you think a very thin layer of aqua proof on the inside of the bearing cup would prevent further noises at the bearing - cup interface, particularly as the noise seems to occur when the thinner types of grease have been squeezed out?

by Weenie


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