What is the current king of aluminum in 2017?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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wingguy
Posts: 4198
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur.
Oh wow yeah I hadn't read his post fully, now I understand your point! Yikes :shock:

by Weenie


Wookski
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:42 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur.
Oh wow yeah I hadn't read his post fully, now I understand your point! Yikes :shock:
“I’m an expert in bottom brackets” :lol:


mentok
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:58 am

by mentok

freehub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:23 pm
A round section bike either has poorer ride quality or poor energy transmission to the rear wheel
Throwing my Planet X commuter under the bus - with its round tubes, it has both poor ride quality AND poor energy transmission compared to my CAAD9. Truly a masterpiece of modern engineering.

I can honestly state that the Planet X Rt58 is NOT the current king of aluminium.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:19 pm
The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since.
Although I totally agree that Press-Fit bikes can be inherently prone to creaking, and are affected by manufacturing tolerances in a way that threaded shells aren't... you also can't take the sheer incompetence of those shop mechanics as further evidence of the failures of PF design. Bike parts of all types need to be installed and adjusted properly in order to work. Sometimes even high end parts that are class leading in performance when setup properly have narrower adjustment windows than lesser quality parts and are absolute garbage when setup in cackhanded fashion.

And in the example above, when you finally got your hands on it and installed it properly, then it worked perfectly. Pretty much what you'd expect of anything, right?
Absolutely... there isn't a pressfit application that I haven't been able to install perfectly and trouble free since I started doing these things. It really does depend on the quality of the install, for sure. They don't scare me anymore, becasue I know that I can install them so they will be silent. The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur. With any "pressfit" install, the goal is zero movement between the surfaces that are pressfit together. If someone comes to me with a creaky BB, and I determine it to be due to the pressfit surfaces themselves, I won't just mask it with grease, I'll fix it.
You misintrpet what I wrote a bit. While you concede what I wrote is true, reality is, many BB30's are installed as dry, with grease and with Loctite. A high percent are installed with grease which you believe is antithetical to the install. Reality is, grease can be forgiving and it can last under a particular condition and btw, Trek BB90's are almost exclusively installed with grease and they are 'slip fit'...metal bearings on carbon bores.

OK, let's see if you really understand BB's. What single element contributes to a silent BB even with variation in how BB's are assembled?
And if you care to play further, what is the single most important thing to do when installing a crank with Loctite?

Also, please explain your last sentence about not masking BB30 and you 'will fix' it. How do you fix it?
Last edited by freehub on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:42 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur.
Oh wow yeah I hadn't read his post fully, now I understand your point! Yikes :shock:
The horror!

User avatar
sugarkane
in the industry
Posts: 1800
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:14 am
Location: SYD
Contact:

by sugarkane

freehub wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:16 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:19 pm
The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since.
Although I totally agree that Press-Fit bikes can be inherently prone to creaking, and are affected by manufacturing tolerances in a way that threaded shells aren't... you also can't take the sheer incompetence of those shop mechanics as further evidence of the failures of PF design. Bike parts of all types need to be installed and adjusted properly in order to work. Sometimes even high end parts that are class leading in performance when setup properly have narrower adjustment windows than lesser quality parts and are absolute garbage when setup in cackhanded fashion.

And in the example above, when you finally got your hands on it and installed it properly, then it worked perfectly. Pretty much what you'd expect of anything, right?
Absolutely... there isn't a pressfit application that I haven't been able to install perfectly and trouble free since I started doing these things. It really does depend on the quality of the install, for sure. They don't scare me anymore, becasue I know that I can install them so they will be silent. The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur. With any "pressfit" install, the goal is zero movement between the surfaces that are pressfit together. If someone comes to me with a creaky BB, and I determine it to be due to the pressfit surfaces themselves, I won't just mask it with grease, I'll fix it.
You misintrpet what I wrote a bit. While you concede what I wrote is true, reality is, many BB30's are installed as dry, with grease and with Loctite. A high percent are installed with grease which you believe is antithetical to the install. Reality is, grease can be forgiving and it can last under a particular condition and btw, Trek BB90's are almost exclusively installed with grease and they are 'slip fit'...metal bearings on carbon bores.

OK, let's see if you really understand BB's. What single element contributes to a silent BB even with variation in how BB's are assembled?
And if you care to play further, what is the single most important thing to do when installing a crank with Loctite?

Also, please explain your last sentence about not masking BB30 and you 'will fix' it. How do you fix it?


Seriously WTF are you taking about ? In fact your entire post is one circle talk of contradiction and nonsense..

Fact 1 I've converted more caad BB30s to bsa than you even seen. Fact 2 correct or incorrect installation of the bearings make no difference the bore will ovalise over time and that's if it's even round to start with...( I've had to deal with brand new CAADs where the two sides of the bottom bracket bore don't even line up and don't even get me started on the poor design and quality control of the Allez ) fact 3 it only exist because cannondale worked out how to save $3-4 in MFG costs and we have that to thank for the bullshit situation that is the pressfit family of bottom brackets.. once apon a time cannondale were leaders of industry and innovation but the last 15 years the engineers have been replace with accountants and the only thing that matters is the profit margins. Another one of my customers who's cAAD 12 is hands down one of the most dumped and kitted on the entire planet describes the ride quality and handling as been fun... like a really cheap hooker.. do you work for them perhaps? Your fan boi obsession and regurgitated marketing hyperbole doesn't really make sense otherwise :noidea:

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

sugarkane wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:25 pm
freehub wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:16 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 pm
wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 pm

Although I totally agree that Press-Fit bikes can be inherently prone to creaking, and are affected by manufacturing tolerances in a way that threaded shells aren't... you also can't take the sheer incompetence of those shop mechanics as further evidence of the failures of PF design. Bike parts of all types need to be installed and adjusted properly in order to work. Sometimes even high end parts that are class leading in performance when setup properly have narrower adjustment windows than lesser quality parts and are absolute garbage when setup in cackhanded fashion.

And in the example above, when you finally got your hands on it and installed it properly, then it worked perfectly. Pretty much what you'd expect of anything, right?
Absolutely... there isn't a pressfit application that I haven't been able to install perfectly and trouble free since I started doing these things. It really does depend on the quality of the install, for sure. They don't scare me anymore, becasue I know that I can install them so they will be silent. The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur. With any "pressfit" install, the goal is zero movement between the surfaces that are pressfit together. If someone comes to me with a creaky BB, and I determine it to be due to the pressfit surfaces themselves, I won't just mask it with grease, I'll fix it.
You misintrpet what I wrote a bit. While you concede what I wrote is true, reality is, many BB30's are installed as dry, with grease and with Loctite. A high percent are installed with grease which you believe is antithetical to the install. Reality is, grease can be forgiving and it can last under a particular condition and btw, Trek BB90's are almost exclusively installed with grease and they are 'slip fit'...metal bearings on carbon bores.

OK, let's see if you really understand BB's. What single element contributes to a silent BB even with variation in how BB's are assembled?
And if you care to play further, what is the single most important thing to do when installing a crank with Loctite?

Also, please explain your last sentence about not masking BB30 and you 'will fix' it. How do you fix it?


Seriously WTF are you taking about ? In fact your entire post is one circle talk of contradiction and nonsense..

Fact 1 I've converted more caad BB30s to bsa than you even seen. Fact 2 correct or incorrect installation of the bearings make no difference the bore will ovalise over time and that's if it's even round to start with...( I've had to deal with brand new CAADs where the two sides of the bottom bracket bore don't even line up and don't even get me started on the poor design and quality control of the Allez ) fact 3 it only exist because cannondale worked out how to save $3-4 in MFG costs and we have that to thank for the bullshit situation that is the pressfit family of bottom brackets.. once apon a time cannondale were leaders of industry and innovation but the last 15 years the engineers have been replace with accountants and the only thing that matters is the profit margins. Another one of my customers who's cAAD 12 is hands down one of the most dumped and kitted on the entire planet describes the ride quality and handling as been fun... like a really cheap hooker.. do you work for them perhaps? Your fan boi obsession and regurgitated marketing hyperbole doesn't really make sense otherwise :noidea:
There is a parallel universe of sorts. Your angry world...your rant...and the rest of cycling practioners that ride happily along on BB30 enjoying its lightness and stiffness, not to mention inexpensive bearings.. :P
BB30....perhaps you are conflating carbon bore PF30 which has been problematic historically...not BB30 with alloy bores which with Loctite will NOT ovalize over time. You are likely mistaking PF30 which btw can be tamed easily with a sleeve like Praxis....aftermarket the rescue.

BB30 is one of the most ubiquitous bottom brackets on the planet. If you can't tame 'em angry bike shop guy....I am likely the guy who fixes your mistakes as I have countless that have poorly set up at the bike shop. Yes, press fit is a bit more nuanced to set up compared to outboard bearing threaded BSA which we may both prefer all said. But, PF can be tamed.

BSA kluges aka conversion of BB30 to a threaded BB are for only guys that can't set 'em up right. If you have a BB30 bike, why not run a lightweight BB30 crank?

But carry on, speaking of hyberbole...and I am sure you will...love it.
Last edited by freehub on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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prendrefeu
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Location: Los Feliz, Los Angeles, California
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by prendrefeu

So much anger over another person's opinion to a very 1st world topic regarding the perceived quality of luxury items.

Now if there was anger on the discussion of world peace, or perhaps solving climate change issues, or homelessness, or world hunger, or global epidemics, that would be a more worthwhile delivery of your energies. At least if might lead to something useful.
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

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Lightweenie
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:00 pm

by Lightweenie

Keep feeding the troll, ... ehm self-proclaimed expert I mean.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Lightweenie wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 pm
Keep feeding the troll, ... ehm self-proclaimed expert I mean.
No, you are trolling. To prove it, explain what I have written is wrong and why.

oldturd
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:10 am

by oldturd

so uhm, just to chime in on the original topic and to support what a few others have now said- i prefer my spooky over my caad10. the caad is very numb in comparison. this is purely my opinion :beerchug:

robertbb
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

freehub wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:59 pm
Lightweenie wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 pm
Keep feeding the troll, ... ehm self-proclaimed expert I mean.
No, you are trolling. To prove it, explain what I have written is wrong and why.
LOL. See, the thing is, this is exactly what a troll would say... ;-)

Anyway. I, back OT, still reckon a bike that is overlooked and shouldn't be is the Canyon Ultimate AL SLX.
It's ALL about the bike.

RobertBB's CyclePlanner Spreadsheet:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8&t=152263

Ltyarbro42
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm

by Ltyarbro42

turlutu wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:14 pm
I don't have ridden nor the CAAD12 nor the Allez Sprint or Spooky .

A friend of mine had a caad12 and is now on the allez sprint ,he's a mtb racer powerfull and uses road training and race to prepare mtb races .
The caad12 was confortable due to the 25,4mm seat post but no it hasn't quality ride .
The gap between the headset and the fork is a shame I think .
And yes lot of BB finish ovalized on the caad10 and 12 .

The Allez sprint felt 90% as good as the SL5 tarmac . It's definitely harsher than the caad12 but you have the same tires clearance as on the caad12 so go wide and play with pressure). It's fast


I think if you ride hard enough , long enough and frequently after one season you can feel your alu frame isn't the same as it used to be ( valid for caad12 , allez sprint , spooky all of aluminium frames ... no matters what treatment or tubing are used it's inherent to the material itself young modulus , elastic limit that sort of thing) . ( 8000 9000 km ? don't know

So he thinks of his alu frames as disposables items
So do I

That's why I have more interest in cf,steel, stainless steel , or titanium


I'd like to see others weigh in on this, because as an engineer I don't see this as very viable. You shouldn't meet the material limits in that short of time.

by Weenie


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themidge
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Location: yer ma

by themidge

BB30 is not an inherently poor design, it is a very good and efficient one if done properly. If both the bearings and the frame are manufactured properly so they are round, straight, etc. then BB30 is great. It's light, it's stiff, it has a low Q-factor. Buuut... If the bearings and the frame are not round or straight or of good quality then you'll get creaks and accelerated wear and all those things. It's all to do with manufacturing methods. Things like drilling from each side of the frame rather than all the way through from one side, or not using accurate molds for the shell, soft or not round bearings, all make BB30 a nightmare, when if those are all done properly, it's great.

tl;dr BB30 is great if you do it properly, and rubbish if it's not.
Raoul Leuscher has some great videos on the subject.

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