What is the current king of aluminum in 2017?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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tonytourist
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by tonytourist

My 2nd ride on my Allez Sprint was 120km, I felt fine when I was done :noidea:

freehub
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

sugarkane wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm
I'm sorry mate but the Allez and the caad are not nice bikes to ride after 100kms and the only engeering that either company has put into either of those bikes is engeering the cost of manufacturing down.. wookski has actually owned the a spook and a raad. My self I've ridden both and plenty of them own a spooky and there is no comparison.. you have to remember that cannondale are the idiots who unleashed the press fit bottom bracket on the world and once again it's was engeering aimed at reducing the cost of MFG not performance. as I said go ride some other bikes.. CAADs are awesome bang per buck and handle really well but ride quality is not a word one associated with them..
We will just have to respectfully disagree. If a round tube bike has the ride quality of an asymmetric tube bike made out of the same material, for
"the same weight" the round tube bike under 1000 watts of pressure will be a wet rag compared to the hydroformed bike.

Possible we come from different worlds. If you are 16 mph smell the flowers kind of guy than lateral stiffness may mean nothing to you as you never throw more than 300 watts at it. The Allez Sprint and CAAD12 are race bikes. They are raceable by elite amateurs and even pros who can throw big power at them with the expectation to perform.

Physics are what they are. Things like moment of inertia may go right over your head. A round tube bike can NOT perform at the same level as a hydroformed asymmetric tube bike and 'weigh the same'. By definition it defies physics with respect may not be your long suit and including the long suit of anybody who chooses a 'boutique brand' bike. Hundreds of engineers + computer modeling will beat anybody buiding bikes in his basement all day any day. F1 cars aren't competitive on the world stage being built in a basement by an artisan either.

As to PF30, you are so right. Specialized fortunately trashed their narrow version of PF30 in favor of much more robust BB30 a couple of years ago. PF30 is one of the biggest disasters perpetrated by any bike mfr. But the analogy stops there. Hydroforming is used by the entire big branded bike industry. Why? Because they have the deep pockets to computer model it...even perform real time strain gage riding and absorb and amortize the tooling and expensive mfg process by virtual of volume sold. Companies that build bikes in the garage don't have any of this technology or capability which includes Spooky and Legend and countless others who rely upon 3 decade old technology. Plain and simple, straight section tube bikes are much easier to manufacture. Asymmetric tube bikes have to be size specific relative to frame size...much more complex to get desired flex in all planes but the benefit it real.

If anybody wonders how important differential section modulus is to bike performance, look now further than the evolution of aero bikes. Early aero bikes rode like cattle trucks because the tube shape to make a bike slippery though the air is 'the exact opposite' of what makes a bike compliant and have lateral stiffness. Now experience modern aero bikes. They ride and sprint almost as good as more conventionally shaped bikes that aren't as slippery. This is through extensive engineering development and computer modeling and exhaustive testing. Today modern aero bikes like the Spesh VIAS, Madone 9 series, Cervelo S-series, new versus old Scott Foil...no comparison....new aero bikes are transformative. Same even applies to the CAAD12 versus CAAD10. CAAD12 is 30+% more compliant compared to CAAD10 due to the march of tech.
Last edited by freehub on Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

gonsales76
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Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:26 pm

by gonsales76

one question...
All of these alu frames (CAAD, ALLEZ,...) are made in Taiwan too??


Enviado desde mi ONEPLUS A3003 mediante Tapatalk


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I had to chuckle when I saw @Sugarkane's comment about Cannondale releasing the pressfit bottom bracket upon the industry. I was going to make a similar comment earlier but then I thought... "Nah, that'd be just a low blow, an easy shot".
Technically, PF30 was an attempt to resolve the issues inherent in BB30, Cannondale's initial H-Bomb on the industry. Specialized's version, early OSBB, was just trying to distinguish themselves from Cannondale and made it even worse by putting the whole thing in an even narrower BB shell than the standard 68mm. Still, thanks Cannondale... we owe you one... an "H-Bomb" that is.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:29 pm
I had to chuckle when I saw @Sugarkane's comment about Cannondale releasing the pressfit bottom bracket upon the industry. I was going to make a similar comment earlier but then I thought... "Nah, that'd be just a low blow, an easy shot".
Technically, PF30 was an attempt to resolve the issues inherent in BB30, Cannondale's initial H-Bomb on the industry. Specialized's version, early OSBB, was just trying to distinguish themselves from Cannondale and made it even worse by putting the whole thing in an even narrower BB shell than the standard 68mm. Still, thanks Cannondale... we owe you one... an "H-Bomb" that is.
True and a lot of carnage all around with wide shell press fit as well.. Trek's design arguably is no better than PF30. They press albeit slip fit metal bearings right into carbon bores aka BB90. Carbon inherently is a very poor bearing surface with its bad abrasion resistance and why BB90 has a propensity to elongate vertically. Trek does this to cut cost and even advertise lowest frame weight. Insert molding a BB30 is more more expensive, creates a much more co-axial bearing bore alignment with more robust bearing retention. BB30 is harder to manufacture reliably but worth it to owners. Loctite + BB30 is utterly reliable. Of course most of at this for a long time prefer outboard bearing BSA.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Do any Cannondale carbon frames actually use a finely machined alloy insert in their carbon BB's today? The local Cannondale shop here just as a matter of routine will remove the BB and grease it up as new bikes come in, before they get sold. They got tired of customers coming back a few days later with creaky bottom brackets. Of course, grease just masks the problem, and makes it even worse as it actually facilitates movement, and hence, wear. The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since. Way off topic of this thread now, but when someone starts espousing on the "virtues" of BB30, well... it's hard to just sit back and laugh by yourself.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:19 pm
Do any Cannondale carbon frames actually use a finely machined alloy insert in their carbon BB's today? The local Cannondale shop here just as a matter of routine will remove the BB and grease it up as new bikes come in, before they get sold. They got tired of customers coming back a few days later with creaky bottom brackets. Of course, grease just masks the problem, and makes it even worse as it actually facilitates movement, and hence, wear. The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since. Way off topic of this thread now, but when someone starts espousing on the "virtues" of BB30, well... it's hard to just sit back and laugh by yourself.
I am an expert in bottom brackets so look inward for any laughter. There are many workarounds to creaking of PF of all varieties. PF30 can be made dead quiet as well with a conversion sleeve to better capture the bearings.
BB30 is among the most robust press fit BB on the market and even BB30 can be converted with a sleeve with outboard bearings to be made more hassle free for those that don't care to deal with Loctite. 50-60% of all BB30's will be dead quiet with just grease depending on tolerances and rider power. 100% can be made quiet with Loctite and no conversion sleeve..

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Look within and ye shall find... yes, great advice, thank you.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Wookski
Posts: 662
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

freehub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:22 pm
sugarkane wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm
I'm sorry mate but the Allez and the caad are not nice bikes to ride after 100kms and the only engeering that either company has put into either of those bikes is engeering the cost of manufacturing down.. wookski has actually owned the a spook and a raad. My self I've ridden both and plenty of them own a spooky and there is no comparison.. you have to remember that cannondale are the idiots who unleashed the press fit bottom bracket on the world and once again it's was engeering aimed at reducing the cost of MFG not performance. as I said go ride some other bikes.. CAADs are awesome bang per buck and handle really well but ride quality is not a word one associated with them..
We will just have to respectfully disagree. If a round tube bike has the ride quality of an asymmetric tube bike made out of the same material, for
"the same weight" the round tube bike under 1000 watts of pressure will be a wet rag compared to the hydroformed bike.
But they’re not the same weight, not even close. Thank you Cannondale, engineering, super rad power, racing and bottom bracket expert.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Wookski wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:16 pm
freehub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:22 pm
sugarkane wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm
I'm sorry mate but the Allez and the caad are not nice bikes to ride after 100kms and the only engeering that either company has put into either of those bikes is engeering the cost of manufacturing down.. wookski has actually owned the a spook and a raad. My self I've ridden both and plenty of them own a spooky and there is no comparison.. you have to remember that cannondale are the idiots who unleashed the press fit bottom bracket on the world and once again it's was engeering aimed at reducing the cost of MFG not performance. as I said go ride some other bikes.. CAADs are awesome bang per buck and handle really well but ride quality is not a word one associated with them..
We will just have to respectfully disagree. If a round tube bike has the ride quality of an asymmetric tube bike made out of the same material, for
"the same weight" the round tube bike under 1000 watts of pressure will be a wet rag compared to the hydroformed bike.
But they’re not the same weight, not even close. Thank you Cannondale, engineering, super rad power, racing and bottom bracket expert.
I am sure you are trying to make a point. What aren't the same weight?

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

Image
Last edited by sugarkane on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

wingguy
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by wingguy

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:19 pm
The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since.
Although I totally agree that Press-Fit bikes can be inherently prone to creaking, and are affected by manufacturing tolerances in a way that threaded shells aren't... you also can't take the sheer incompetence of those shop mechanics as further evidence of the failures of PF design. Bike parts of all types need to be installed and adjusted properly in order to work. Sometimes even high end parts that are class leading in performance when setup properly have narrower adjustment windows than lesser quality parts and are absolute garbage when setup in cackhanded fashion.

And in the example above, when you finally got your hands on it and installed it properly, then it worked perfectly. Pretty much what you'd expect of anything, right?

ianeire
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:08 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

by ianeire

I love my CAAD10. I find it very comfortable to take on all-day 200km plus rides.

I have it in rotation with a SuperSix HM, a Storck Absolutist, a Ribble R876, and a steel Carlton SuperCourse. It all depends on your frame of reference.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

wingguy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:19 pm
The only reason I even started working on Pressfit bottom brackets (I hated them and used to say, "take it back to where you got it") is because a friend with an Evo just couldn't get rid of his creak. In and out of shops constantly, and all they ever did was apply grease to it. I finally got tired of his complaining, took the thing apart, installed a Chris King PF30 BB along with retaining compound and primer, and he hasn't had a peep since.
Although I totally agree that Press-Fit bikes can be inherently prone to creaking, and are affected by manufacturing tolerances in a way that threaded shells aren't... you also can't take the sheer incompetence of those shop mechanics as further evidence of the failures of PF design. Bike parts of all types need to be installed and adjusted properly in order to work. Sometimes even high end parts that are class leading in performance when setup properly have narrower adjustment windows than lesser quality parts and are absolute garbage when setup in cackhanded fashion.

And in the example above, when you finally got your hands on it and installed it properly, then it worked perfectly. Pretty much what you'd expect of anything, right?
Absolutely... there isn't a pressfit application that I haven't been able to install perfectly and trouble free since I started doing these things. It really does depend on the quality of the install, for sure. They don't scare me anymore, becasue I know that I can install them so they will be silent. The statement our "expert" above made about 50-60% of them can be made dead quiet with grease alone makes me cringe a bit, becasue while that is true, it is only masking the problem and making it even easier for the movement to occur. With any "pressfit" install, the goal is zero movement between the surfaces that are pressfit together. If someone comes to me with a creaky BB, and I determine it to be due to the pressfit surfaces themselves, I won't just mask it with grease, I'll fix it.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Multebear
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

freehub wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:22 pm


Possible we come from different worlds. If you are 16 mph smell the flowers kind of guy than lateral stiffness may mean nothing to you as you never throw more than 300 watts at it. The Allez Sprint and CAAD12 are race bikes. They are raceable by elite amateurs and even pros who can throw big power at them with the expectation to perform.
What happens with the power you put down, if the frame isn't particularly lateral stiff? Does it disappear?

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