What is the current king of aluminum in 2017?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

dcorn wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:21 pm
CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:27 pm
Ltyarbro42 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:27 pm

I'd like to see others weigh in on this, because as an engineer I don't see this as very viable. You shouldn't meet the material limits in that short of time.
Image
You know that's the 3rd time you've posted that pic in this thread...
yeah and besides it a previous level Allez and should be replaced with the most recent model Sprint with aero cues. :wink:
Something like this:
Attachments
sprint.jpg

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Except more pink.Image

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Using Tapatalk

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

freehub wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:33 pm

yeah and besides it a previous level Allez and should be replaced with the most recent model Sprint with aero cues. :wink:
Something like this:
You know... I've thought about that myself, but I juts can't bring myself ot get rid of this bike. I enjoy riding it too much. There's no doubt that the Sprint is a fine frame as well, but I don't know if I'd enjoy it as much for general, all around riding. The geometry on the Sprint is much more aggressive with head tub that is 15mm lower and a steering angle that is much sharper for more agile turning. The geometry on my generation Allez is the same as the Tarmac. I really like the bottom bracket design of the Sprint. I wish they'd make a version of my Allez with the bottom bracket of the Sprint and dropped seat stays.

When I want to go aero, I have this.

Image
2016 Pactimo Brand Ambassador
http://www.Crankaddicts.cc
2017 Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL5
2015 Specialized S-Works Allez
2014 Specialized S-Works Shiv TT
2015 Specialized Venge Pro (Retired)

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:30 pm
freehub wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:33 pm

yeah and besides it a previous level Allez and should be replaced with the most recent model Sprint with aero cues. :wink:
Something like this:
You know... I've thought about that myself, but I juts can't bring myself ot get rid of this bike. I enjoy riding it too much. There's no doubt that the Sprint is a fine frame as well, but I don't know if I'd enjoy it as much for general, all around riding. The geometry on the Sprint is much more aggressive with head tub that is 15mm lower and a steering angle that is much sharper for more agile turning. The geometry on my generation Allez is the same as the Tarmac. I really like the bottom bracket design of the Sprint. I wish they'd make a version of my Allez with the bottom bracket of the Sprint and dropped seat stays.

When I want to go aero, I have this.

Image
You are a man of obvious taste. :beerchug:

dim
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

dcorn wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:21 pm
CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:27 pm
Ltyarbro42 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:27 pm

I'd like to see others weigh in on this, because as an engineer I don't see this as very viable. You shouldn't meet the material limits in that short of time.
Image
You know that's the 3rd time you've posted that pic in this thread...
:D ... funnily, the more that I look at it, the more I want it
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
Specialized Allez Sport

CrankAddictsRich
Posts: 1257
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by CrankAddictsRich

freehub wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:31 pm

You are a man of obvious taste. :beerchug:
And when I really want to go "full-aero", I have this...

Image
2016 Pactimo Brand Ambassador
http://www.Crankaddicts.cc
2017 Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL5
2015 Specialized S-Works Allez
2014 Specialized S-Works Shiv TT
2015 Specialized Venge Pro (Retired)

User avatar
sugarkane
in the industry
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by sugarkane

freehub wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:08 pm
Digger90 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:04 pm
themidge wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:40 pm
BB30 is not an inherently poor design, it is a very good and efficient one if done properly. If both the bearings and the frame are manufactured properly so they are round, straight, etc. then BB30 is great. It's light, it's stiff, it has a low Q-factor. Buuut... If the bearings and the frame are not round or straight or of good quality then you'll get creaks and accelerated wear and all those things. It's all to do with manufacturing methods. Things like drilling from each side of the frame rather than all the way through from one side, or not using accurate molds for the shell, soft or not round bearings, all make BB30 a nightmare, when if those are all done properly, it's great.

tl;dr BB30 is great if you do it properly, and rubbish if it's not.
Raoul Leuscher has some great videos on the subject.

You're right - the engineering theory is great- but the real-world application of it has been a total and utter disaster. Frankly, Cannondale should hang their heads in shame for unleashing such a disaster on the world.


BB30 and all it's press-fit derivations have been one of the worst 'innovations' the cycling industry has foisted upon us consumers - and according to several people who've sampled production frames Cannondale has one of the poorest track records in the industry. (See the first Hambini video linked below - for just one example).

Cannondale's accountants (allegedly) invented press-fit BB's to cut manufacturing costs - and then Cannondale's Marketing dept 'sold' us all on the benefits of press fit. And there are a few advantages - larger BB shells mean wider axles, larger diameter axles, beefier DT/chainstay/ST areas etc. Also, supposedly gerater longevity (ha ha ha ha ha).

But in far too many cases manufacturers cut corners, don't manufacture with sufficient precision for tolerances, don't have sufficient QA testing, plus many other sins.

The result has been awful experiences of creaky, squeaky bottom brackets, many of which have worn out prematurely, some of which have ruined frames, and very, very few of which have ever delivered on the supoosed 'benefits'.






As to the picture shown with ovalized BB. If this came from the factory like this, than of course it is a rejected frame that should be returned for a replacement frame. But pictures like this posted on the internet are abused frames with unknown background. Reality is...if a BB30 bike has a seized bearing due to neglect or abuse....unlubricated bearing subjected to a lot of poor weather riding....the bearing will seize and can ovalize the BB bore. An ovalized bore is many times accompanied by insufficient bearing preload....a condition lost on many that set up BB30. In particular this is a common issue with Shimano cranks that are among my favorite because of their mechanical preload. If preload is misadjusted...either too tight or too loose and non angular contact bearings are used, and the bearings aren't lubricated properly to repel contamination from the environment...and even add it a higher watt rider, you have a perfect storm...a high side of tolerance BB30's will aggrevate this as well. So few understand the true dynamic at play. They only know, they end up with an ovalized BB and don't know why. Virtually all if not most can be avoided with proper set up and good bearing selection and adequate maintenance. This can happen even in degree over time.

sorry man but this for one isn't an ovalised bb shell to be honest its not easy to photograph an ovalised shell, secondly its not some random photo from the internet its a photo i took of a customers bike and number 3 it wasn't rejected in QC and cannondale have little interest in taking it back.
also all the stock caads in the 10 range came with 30mm cranks.. you can't as you say 'properly set up' a BB30 system for a trouble free life if this kinda crap is how it ships from the factory.. BB30 is a nice idea in the white paper but how cannondale has impelemted in actual production has been abysmal ..

morganb
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm

by morganb

Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:45 pm
Except more pink.Image

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
I wouldn't have picked up my Sagan frame if I knew this was coming, at least my bar tape is pink.

Wookski
Posts: 851
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:45 pm
Except more pink.Image

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
That’s so rad, pity this thread has been hijacked by a jackass.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

sugarkane wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:03 pm
freehub wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:08 pm
Digger90 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:04 pm
themidge wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:40 pm
BB30 is not an inherently poor design, it is a very good and efficient one if done properly. If both the bearings and the frame are manufactured properly so they are round, straight, etc. then BB30 is great. It's light, it's stiff, it has a low Q-factor. Buuut... If the bearings and the frame are not round or straight or of good quality then you'll get creaks and accelerated wear and all those things. It's all to do with manufacturing methods. Things like drilling from each side of the frame rather than all the way through from one side, or not using accurate molds for the shell, soft or not round bearings, all make BB30 a nightmare, when if those are all done properly, it's great.

tl;dr BB30 is great if you do it properly, and rubbish if it's not.
Raoul Leuscher has some great videos on the subject.

You're right - the engineering theory is great- but the real-world application of it has been a total and utter disaster. Frankly, Cannondale should hang their heads in shame for unleashing such a disaster on the world.


BB30 and all it's press-fit derivations have been one of the worst 'innovations' the cycling industry has foisted upon us consumers - and according to several people who've sampled production frames Cannondale has one of the poorest track records in the industry. (See the first Hambini video linked below - for just one example).

Cannondale's accountants (allegedly) invented press-fit BB's to cut manufacturing costs - and then Cannondale's Marketing dept 'sold' us all on the benefits of press fit. And there are a few advantages - larger BB shells mean wider axles, larger diameter axles, beefier DT/chainstay/ST areas etc. Also, supposedly gerater longevity (ha ha ha ha ha).

But in far too many cases manufacturers cut corners, don't manufacture with sufficient precision for tolerances, don't have sufficient QA testing, plus many other sins.

The result has been awful experiences of creaky, squeaky bottom brackets, many of which have worn out prematurely, some of which have ruined frames, and very, very few of which have ever delivered on the supoosed 'benefits'.






As to the picture shown with ovalized BB. If this came from the factory like this, than of course it is a rejected frame that should be returned for a replacement frame. But pictures like this posted on the internet are abused frames with unknown background. Reality is...if a BB30 bike has a seized bearing due to neglect or abuse....unlubricated bearing subjected to a lot of poor weather riding....the bearing will seize and can ovalize the BB bore. An ovalized bore is many times accompanied by insufficient bearing preload....a condition lost on many that set up BB30. In particular this is a common issue with Shimano cranks that are among my favorite because of their mechanical preload. If preload is misadjusted...either too tight or too loose and non angular contact bearings are used, and the bearings aren't lubricated properly to repel contamination from the environment...and even add it a higher watt rider, you have a perfect storm...a high side of tolerance BB30's will aggrevate this as well. So few understand the true dynamic at play. They only know, they end up with an ovalized BB and don't know why. Virtually all if not most can be avoided with proper set up and good bearing selection and adequate maintenance. This can happen even in degree over time.

sorry man but this for one isn't an ovalised bb shell to be honest its not easy to photograph an ovalised shell, secondly its not some random photo from the internet its a photo i took of a customers bike and number 3 it wasn't rejected in QC and cannondale have little interest in taking it back.
also all the stock caads in the 10 range came with 30mm cranks.. you can't as you say 'properly set up' a BB30 system for a trouble free life if this kinda crap is how it ships from the factory.. BB30 is a nice idea in the white paper but how cannondale has impelemted in actual production has been abysmal ..
We maybe talking past one another bit and there is a level of conflation going on. I hear you...but...the picture you show of the trashed BB30 was due to a poorly set up BB with trashed bearing(s). That is why Cannondale did not take it back. It was customer abuse. You can debate that all you like but that is the reality. I can post many pictures of BB's that were abused. If you run too tight a crankset preload, and run bearings low on grease, it will trash the bearings and they will seize and rotate int their bores and result in the picture you show. That is fact. Too loose a crankset preload can manifest the same condition. Low quality non angular contact bearings are more sensitive to crank preload and tend to fail sooner.

As to Cannondale quality control which you witness every day, I have no quibble with you. No doubt they could provide more perfect product. I doubt it is as much a metalurgy deficiency or variance as much as dimensional variance. Reality is, with loctite even a a slip fit can be tamed with BB30 where bores are ovalized or oversize from the factory. Without loctite and unmaintained BB30's with poor quality bearings, now you have an accident in waiting that no doubt you see in your shop more often than you like which you blame on Cannondale and BB30 design itself but reality is...the customer has some stake in the blame as well. I can tell you that I have repaired countless BB30 bikes that bike shops completely f-ed up because they had no idea what they were doing. If you don't use Loctite and bearings aren't serviced in 5k intervals and even more often if riding a lot in rain and/or crank preload is improperly set, a failure is imminent. With proper set up, high quality bearings and vigilant maintenance, the vast majority of BB30 bikes from all top manufacturers work perfectly.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:45 pm
Except more pink.Image

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Worth another look. Beautiful.

CrankAddictsRich
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:39 pm
Contact:

by CrankAddictsRich

freehub wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:31 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:45 pm
Except more pink.Image

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Worth another look. Beautiful.
Totally agree.. Pink wouldn't be my choice, but that bike is still bad ass, none the less.
2016 Pactimo Brand Ambassador
http://www.Crankaddicts.cc
2017 Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL5
2015 Specialized S-Works Allez
2014 Specialized S-Works Shiv TT
2015 Specialized Venge Pro (Retired)

Ltyarbro42
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm

by Ltyarbro42

Why the *f##k* are we talking about some dude's paint job that is totally unrelated?

Digger90
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:34 pm

by Digger90

by freehub on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:18 pm


We maybe talking past one another bit and there is a level of conflation going on. I hear you...but...the picture you show of the trashed BB30 was due to a poorly set up BB with trashed bearing(s). That is why Cannondale did not take it back. It was customer abuse. You can debate that all you like but that is the reality. I can post many pictures of BB's that were abused. If you run too tight a crankset preload, and run bearings low on grease, it will trash the bearings and they will seize and rotate int their bores and result in the picture you show. That is fact. Too loose a crankset preload can manifest the same condition. Low quality non angular contact bearings are more sensitive to crank preload and tend to fail sooner.

As to Cannondale quality control which you witness every day, I have no quibble with you. No doubt they could provide more perfect product. I doubt it is as much a metalurgy deficiency or variance as much as dimensional variance. Reality is, with loctite even a a slip fit can be tamed with BB30 where bores are ovalized or oversize from the factory. Without loctite and unmaintained BB30's with poor quality bearings, now you have an accident in waiting that no doubt you see in your shop more often than you like which you blame on Cannondale and BB30 design itself but reality is...the customer has some stake in the blame as well. I can tell you that I have repaired countless BB30 bikes that bike shops completely f-ed up because they had no idea what they were doing. If you don't use Loctite and bearings aren't serviced in 5k intervals and even more often if riding a lot in rain and/or crank preload is improperly set, a failure is imminent. With proper set up, high quality bearings and vigilant maintenance, the vast majority of BB30 bikes from all top manufacturers work perfectly.



Seriously, I don't understand how anyone could post this and maintain a straight face.

Are you seriously saying poorly setup BB, too tight preload, bearings being run low on grease, too loose crankset preload, using glue to install BB's... it's all down to customer 'abuse'?

If that's what it takes to set up BB30 properly... WTF??

What was so wrong with 68mm threaded BB's?

We don't live in an engineering lab - we live in the real world and BB30 is total, utter cr@p. Cannondale are the arch culprit.

Wookski
Posts: 851
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

Ltyarbro42 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:37 pm
Why the *f##k* are we talking about some dude's paint job that is totally unrelated?
It’s much more interesting than the “defend bb30 at all costs” rant

by Weenie


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