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Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:26 pm
by possibleweenie
2lo8 wrote:1150g is plenty light for an aluminum frame. It could come down to a difference in size and the weight of paint, which is often not included in advertised weights. It may surprise you, but glossy white paint can actually be quite heavy. Unless you have a verified weight for the Rose, you're likely to wind up disappointed.

You really don't need to spend 80 eur on a pro grade press, you might as well just spend a fraction of the price getting it done at a shop, of if you do it yourself, get a cheaper tool.

If you want to build a light weight wheelset, you can build up your choice of Kinlins on Bitex hubs with Sapim Lasers or CX-Rays which will come in around ~1400g depending on rim choice.

Well, seller confirms the weight with all bits is 1700g (photo of scales shown)
However, he does quote a review that says the fork is 327g and that the frame is 1263g...
That has to be for a larger size because the BB and headset could not weight 110g...or could they?

Had a look at the Galibier again. Not so keen on the current color scheme, to be honest.

Latest calculactions (and I think I can stop here at least for today)

Rose Xeon + R24 Spline + Red crank + Force 22 group + current stock: 7,145g = eur1,610
RT-90 + Bortola + Red/Force22 combo + current stock: 6,780g = eur1,870

Both now have discounts applied to my account from Wiggle.

I can't build a wheelset, sadly. Had a look at the Cicle Clinic website (builder in the UK) and 1400 ish is possible hand made from him but he does charge a bit more than 400eur for the wheelset compared to the Bortola's. Bortola's are apparently a ~1500ish wheelset, though, so I am counting them here as a 1600g wheelset with skewers on. RR21 (eur540 from wiggle) would be a more guranteed ~1500g with skewers on.

Gonna have a look how much I can shave with other components (post, saddle, etc) compared to what I have and see where I land.

I am liking the eur1,610 figure, however. I initially thought I can get to 6.8 or thereabouts with the chinarello import (RT-80/90 from PX) and eur1,500 some months ago. I got cold feet when I read about the almost 50% anti dumping duty the frame will suffer once it lands.

Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:26 pm
by Weenie

Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:57 pm
by jobvisser
What about using a second hand sram red 2010 (10 speed) Shifters ,brakes and derrailleur these are lighter and way cheaper than the new sram red .

Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:30 pm
by possibleweenie
jobvisser wrote:What about using a second hand sram red 2010 (10 speed) Shifters ,brakes and derrailleur these are lighter and way cheaper than the new sram red .

Yep! Had a look into that too.

Found second hand the shifters, RD and FD only.
Mixed with a new crankset of my size (most second and cranksets are too long for me) and new force 10spd cassette and chain, total comes in at eur710 + eur 105 for force brakes or eur230 for Red brakes, which are the same as the 10 speed era as far as I can tell.

Total eur815 on all 10 speed. That's only eur5 less than all new Force 22 with 10spd Red crankset shedding not too much between the derailleurs (40g?)

Rose has a complete that I am looking into now (their new, allegedly, sub 1kg alu frame) that they say it would be 6.75kg on size 57 with their kit (give or take 5%....which is a massive 330g tolerance!)

Their wheelset is a ~1400g 14c (you read that right, 14c) thing. I changed their options to a heavier, but friendlier to 25c tyres, R23 Spline. 200g more, 40eur more.

So, allegedly, 6.950g (give or take) for eur1840 complete new bike with full Force 22 set and R23.

So we have so far:

eur1,880 for a complete new bike ~7,300g (including the only weight of pedals I know now)
eur1,970 for RT-90 build at ~6,780
eur1,710 for heavier Rose Xeon RS build at ~7,150g

One part of the equation I forgot to add before is that I actually do not have the pedals I thought I did (eur40 last time I got a pair) and I need a new pair of tyres (eur64 p pair). Hence the new pricing above.

Price per gram in eur:

Rose Complete: 0.257
Rose build s/h: 0.239
RT-90 build: 0.290

Thinking I can take that new bike, replace the H/bar (Ritchey WCS EVO) and shed a few grams with my Deda Zero 100. Ditto for the Stem. If I think of the 90eur difference between the lightest build I have above and the new Rose package, I can also think of getting the discounted Red crankset, sell the Force crankset and shed 100g there in the process. I am certain as well that the GP 4000s II set up at Rose has 100g butyl tubes (if they are generous) or heavier. I can use my Vitoria latex stash in it and shed another 50g and improve the ride quality in the meantime. Likely I can shed 200g off of that new build with a bit more dough and bring it closer to the RT-90 build BUT in lasty aluminium.

Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:00 pm
by possibleweenie

So, work took over for a bit and I couldn’t update this. Gotta say, I enjoy stuff like this. Not just because of cycling, but because of the engagement in finding the right balance between cost and performance and between wants and needs. You know, you want something, but in reality you don’t need it. Technically, I do not need this bike. I have another geared bike, flat bar, city type of bike, but I do want to build a proper roadie. If all goes well (pray, cross fingers and touch wood) I will be moving to a semi hilly area in the outskirts of the city. There should be plenty of places to ride for hours around there and I’d love to be able to have a self build to enjoy.

My instinct was to go with the new Rose Xeon build from their site. Get the Red crankset (because of the deal that was happening) and resell the Force crankset that comes with that bike. Also sell my h/bar, post and stems because I would be doubling-up for no reason. Recoup some of that money back. After working out some numbers, the cost of the new Rose bike, with the RR22 (OEM version of the RR21 Dicut but with the 340 hubs instead of the 240, ergo a bit cheaper) Force groupset and the sale of my parts, the expected total cost would have been eur2,045, and I would have ended up with an expected bike weight of 7,080g (Force groupset + red crankset + rr22 wheelset)

New Rose Build: ~eur2,049 = ~7,080g

Then, the other option was to build the second hand Rose frameset I mentioned earlier. A bit more expensive at it’s original price point (eur500) and then Force-it-up, as it were, with the exception of the Red crankset, spring for the Bortola wheelset (because I would always wonder if I didn’t go all in) and I would end up with about eur1,905 and a bike with an expected weight of 6,945g.

Second hand Rose build: ~eur1,905 = ~6,945g

Eur145 difference for roughly 135g.

Well, work happened and I got to sleep on it for a bit. I really had to come to terms on whether I should end up doing it or not. I love cycling, as you all would, so I was about to pull the trigger on the new Rose build because 1) new is always nice, 2) ready to go and 3) warranty. Minor weight difference, but I would be happy with the set up.

Then, a few bits and bobs happened in front of me all of the sudden. Worked some numbers out. Stayed up late. Re-checked those numbers and:

1st: Got the GXP Red 22 crankset in my size for 200GBP. Plus postage, it will end up costing 240eur. NEW.
2nd: Thanks to some sellers, the price of 3 key components came to be very tempting. The second hand Rose frameset came in at eur390 shipped and…wait for it…eTap shifters and RD for eur750, shipped. In case you are not aware, the RD is the main unit and there are a couple of youtube videos suggesting that 1) eTap can be run in a 1x11 set up and 2) eTap RD may run a 32t cog in the back.

So, those 4 bits have brought the bill so far to eur1,380 and the weight up to 2,809g (as per SRAM specs and the confirmed 1700g frameset weight including headset and BB)

OK. The challenge is now to find the other bits. Red brake calipers? Too expensive. We are already running high on the bill. Force callipers? Better, weight seems OK. BOOM, forgot about the two brands I remember researching brake callipers on, some time ago, when building my single speed: TRP and Cane Creek.

TRP 920: 250g (mfg spec) – lighter than Red. Allegedly better than any SRAM brake and on part with Shimano. Eur130.

Cane Creek SL: 260g (mfg spec) – allegedly the same as the TRP, but with some difference that creates that weight difference. Not many reviews on those. Eur99.

Force brake set: eur110, 280g mfg spec weight.

I like the look of the TRPs more than the Cane Creeks. I like the price of the Cane Creeks.

Next: We need a cassette, chain and wheelset:

I came across this UK shop called Cycling Division and they have their own CERO wheelset range. AR24 EVO: 250GBP, 1466g -/+ 1% (their specs) + 110g skewers. AR30, bit more aero, same width, 420GBP, 1430g -/+ 1% (their specs), better hubs, 90g skewers. Let’s go for the 249GBP ones. Postage is 20GBP to where I am: eur312 total on that.

The same shop also offers a 240g chain which, apparently, it’s rather good. 23GBP. Sadly, out of stock. But, now keen to find that chain or similar for that price (roughly 8eur less than SRAM Red/Force or Shimano chains) Have not checked KMC just yet but will soon.

Without the FD, the eTap-mix grouppo weight (with the average weight of a 11-28 cassette at 250g) comes in at: 1849g (609 CR +260 Sh + 240 RD + 250 Cas + 250 Br + 240 Ch) with that new chain I found AND the TRP brakes.

Groupset of Victory: eur1,240 = 1849g

Wheelset: eur312 = 1566g

Frameset: eur390 = 1700g

So far: eur1942

Only element missing now is tyres (Schwalbe Pro One TL), saddle and pedals. Got an estimate for those to come in at eur165.

Projected total: eur2107

Having the same calculations I did before for the weights, we end up with a complete bike at:

6,830g + whatever the weight of the brake cables will come in at.

Saddle: Pro Falcon = 205g (mfg spec)
Post: Deda Superzero = 210g (mfg spec)
Stem: Deda Zero 100 80mm or S-works SL 100mm = ~100g on either, expected, I need to weight them
H/bar: Deda Zero 100 compact = 255g (mfg spec)
Tyres: Schwalbe Pro One 25c = 255g (mfg spec) + 30mm of sealant: ~300g per tyre expected (600g total)

I can play around with the last bit of components, I guess. Any ideas on good value saddles or other to save weight? I had one of these carbon only saddles that come from China. Super light (mine came in at 100g spot on) but needs a bit of padding. I like Arione VS (I have two) but I would like the Pro Falcon saddle weight and price better. On tubeless tyres, I can’t find the same balance of weight, rolling resistance and puncture resistance in any other tyre. A current combo I run now is Michelin Pro4 Endurance with Latex (~310g per tyre, mfg spec)

I think that eur2107 for Etap and a potentially sub 7kg complete is not going too shabby. My thought as well is that if I wanted, later on, to shed some weight and I had some cash to spare, all I have to do is to look for a CF or other lighter frameset (say, the CR1 I had looked at earlier) and transport all the components to that bike because, really, a 1850g groupset and a 1576g wheelset are not too shabby of a combo.

An RT-90 build would shave 250g or so with the same parts….or would it? I recently found this auction and I thought it was a bit…discouraging on the RT-90 possible weight: ... 7675.l2557

Red 10spd all. Lot’s of carbon, including the wheels and a lightweight (I think so, anyway) saddle of 190g and the frame still comes up to between 9,980-7.050? I mean, if I end up with a 7kg bike with aluminium…something has not gone right for him or those wheels and tyres are heavy.

Happy to hear suggestions for saddles and tyres.

Also, very grateful for all of your inputs. Thanks a lot.

Re: Possible Scott CR1 build on a budget (7.1kg total inc. pedals)

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:42 pm
by possibleweenie
Quick update.

So, built the new bike and.... with a second hand Dura Ace 11-28 the final weight sits at ~6,950g

I am happy with that. With the Ultegra 11-32, the weight is more like 7,100g. Now, my scale does not seem to count on a per gram basis when I pick up the bike. The Ultegra cassette weights 282g and the Dura Ace weights 190, weighted on kitchen scales carefully. The Roadlink I used to help the Etap RD clear the 32T at the back weights 16g. With a total of ~108g off the bike from Ultegra to DA, I don't see why my scale (the pick up the bike type) has a difference of 150g. Best thing I can of is that the scale rounds up to the nearest 50g. So, let's say 7,100g with Ultegra and less than 7,000g with DA.

Race Face pedals came in at 360g...very disappointed. I am looking at other flats for lightweight and I got an eye on a pair of KCNC Knife pedals (170g incl. pins) and that would be a nice discount of 190g right there.

In the end I ended up with a nice wheelset from CERO, at cycledivision UK. AR22 in 24/28 that came in, without skewers, at a cool 1480g. Skewers are 80g but I used (so I can park the bike with confidence for a little while at least) 120g IXOW skewers (got the taste for them with a canyon bike I bought and they do work really well with "the secret" key)

I can give more detailed weights in the future but work comes first so time is a bit at a premium.

Any questions, happy to answer.