Dura Ace 9100/9150 noisier than 9000!

[rsantos450]

Thinking about selling this and go Etap....

[Dogmatic13]

i noticed the same thing. big ring and middle cogs.

when i go small ring and small cogs, definitely more quiet.

[Calnago]

Are you guys saying Big ring/middle cogs is noisy but Big ring/larger cogs or Big ring/ smaller cogs is not? That just doesn’t make sense to me unless either setup is way off or you’ve got a really messed up chainline. Is it all Shimano stuff you’re using?... cassettes, chain, rings etc?

[CallumRD1]

I'm on Ultegra 8070/8050 (mid length cage RD) and I'm experiencing similar symptoms. My bike is far, far louder in the big ring (50t) and the 4th cog (22t on an 11-32 cassette) than any other gear. And every gear is quieter in the small ring (34t) than in the big ring. I definetely don't have any indexing issues and the chainline seems pretty good to me.

[Calnago]

That’s so strange to me that big ring and 4th cog (counting from smallest upwards) would be the noisiest combo of the bunch. Normally that combo should be one of, if not the quietest combo of the lot. All Shimano components? Chain oriented the correct way if directional (stamped printing facing out)? Chainstay length should certainly not even be a factor in that combo either. Your hanger is straight I presume. That video posted earlier was certainly crazy noisy. I just don’t know why that would be. Without being there I’d say it’s very poorly adjusted but I have to assume that that’s not the case. I’m gonna get my hands on the latest 9170 build I did and check this out further. So there’s nothing else you can see that you can think might possibly be contributing to all the noise? Because assuming everything is Shimano and the hanger is in alignment etc, I just cant think of anything other than an adjustment issue. You say it’s the 4th cog... so the 14 tooth cog then?... with the 13 and 15 on either side of it? Whoops, just reread your post and you’re counting down from the top, so the 22 tooth cog it is. And it’s less noisy in the larger cogs (than 22) while on the 50 up front?

[CallumRD1]

In my case it's the 4th cog, counting from largest down, i.e. the 22t on my 11-32. I do have the chain on the correct way, Shimano Ultegra 8050 FD and RD (mid cage but with a little b tension to clear the 32t cog), Shimano Ultegra 8000 compact crankset, Shimano Ultegra 6800 11-32 cassette, Shimano CN-HG701 Ultegra 11 speed chain. It is interesting that the noise is dependent on both the chainring and cog choice. I wonder if this has to do with both the chainring/cassette tooth profiles and the chain tension created by the rear derailleur. That could potentially help to explain why there is less noise in the small chainring than the big at a given road speed (less overall chain tension).

Edit: I'm on a Felt F3x cyclocross bike in size 57 cm which has a 430 mm chainstay length.

[Calnago]

How’s the chainlength look when you’re in big/big? How close is the upper pulley to the teeth of the largest cog when in the small ring/large cog combo? Chainstays are long for sure, and being a cross specific bike the BB drop is probably less than on a road bike, but still, I struggle to see what could be causing all the ruckus, especially since it’s isolated to that one gear combination.

[TheKaiser]

If it's the same cog for everyone (like the 22t as Callum described), is it possible that the stamping/shaping of that cog was imperfect of the production line? Then the higher chain tension of the big ring would exacerbate the imperfect fit between chain and cassette?

I have had cassettes before where a given cog seemed a little iffy, like the pitch or tooth shaping was slighly off, even when both cassette and chain were brand new. Granted, that was usually cheap stuff purchased for winter training, not Ultegra/D-A level gear, but the principle holds true.

If it is different specific size cogs for everyone, is it possible the people with this issue use those middle cogs more/less than the ones at the more extreme ends of the cassette? That would perhaps lead to a differing amount of wear on them, vs the others that run more silently, which would then change the way the chain interfaces with them.

[Calnago]

“Wear” is something that could certainly affect things, yes. So, one more question to those experiencing the problem... is your chain in good shape, within the wear tolerances? Is it the first chain on the system, as opposed to the 2nd or 3rd in the same cassette? And if it is actually only the 22 tooth cog for everyone then yes, as Kaiser says, perhaps it’s something peculiar with that one cog.

Just reread Original Poster’s post and he is saying it’s noisy in the “middle” cogs, so I’m presuming that means more than just the 22 cog. It’s a mystery.

[CallumRD1]

I've experienced this thorugh a couple of chains, my current one only having a handful of hundred miles on it. (I started waxing my chains this spring so I'm rotating through a couple. I did experience this issue with both wax and traditional wet and dry lubes.) The cassette is in quite good shape, and the 4th (22t) cog is in especialy good shape because cogs 5, 6, and 7 get the brunt of the wear on flatter rides and my daily commute. The pulley wheel is a little ways away from the 32t cog when in the small chainring, see attached photo. The BB drop on my Felt F3x is 65mm, so a little bit less than most road bikes of a similar size. (A 58 cm Emonda has a BB drop of 68mm.)

[pdlpsher1]

I do see some heavy wear on your lower pulley. You might want to replace both pulleys and see if that helps. I have the 8050 GS RD and 11-34 with no problems.

One thing I read is that the new ‘shadow’ derailleur has a much higher pulley cage tension than the traditional derailleur. I wonder if this has something to do with it. If true then I wonder if the noise is loud under no load but do not increase under load.


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[CallumRD1]

I do see some heavy wear on your lower pulley. You might want to replace both pulleys and see if that helps. I have the 8050 GS RD and 11-34 with no problems.

One thing I read is that the new ‘shadow’ derailleur has a much higher pulley cage tension than the traditional derailleur. I wonder if this has something to do with it. If true then I wonder if the noise is loud under no load but do not increase under load.


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That pulley has about 500 miles on it...

On a different note, while riding home today I went through all the cogs listening to amount of noise they make and by far the loudest two were the 4th and 5th cogs (22t and 20t) which happen to be mounted on the same carrier. (Largest three cogs share a carrier, then the next two cogs share a carrier, and the last 6 are singles.)

Edit: Fixed typo.
Edit 2: Added photo of lower pulley

[Calnago]

Yes, those pulleys don’t look worn to me. But without seeing it in person I’m at a loss though as to why it’s so noisy. I think I’d pull the cassette and check that one carrier with the two offending cogs to make sure all is secure. It’s not like Shimano hasn’t had some issues in that regard.
But also... you say you’re maybe on your third chain with the same cassette? I’d check that the chain isn’t worn, but if it is the third chain with the same cassette then that cassette is in need of a change as well. In fact, if that’s a fairly new unworn chain, running on a cassette that’s already seen two chains worth of wear, then that right there could be your problem.
Good luck.

[CallumRD1]

Yes, those pulleys don’t look worn to me. But without seeing it in person I’m at a loss though as to why it’s so noisy. I think I’d pull the cassette and check that one carrier with the two offending cogs to make sure all is secure. It’s not like Shimano hasn’t had some issues in that regard.
But also... you say you’re maybe on your third chain with the same cassette? I’d check that the chain isn’t worn, but if it is the third chain with the same cassette then that cassette is in need of a change as well. In fact, if that’s a fairly new unworn chain, running on a cassette that’s already seen two chains worth of wear, then that right there could be your problem.
Good luck.

I added a photo of the pulley in the post above. The cassette was used for one full chain (maybe 2000 miles, changed somewhere between 0.5% and 0.75% wear) and then I decided to switch to waxing my chain so I purchased two new chains which I've used exclusively on that cassette for maybe 500 miles so far. (I alternate the chains when the current one is ready for rewaxing.) So there's probably some wear on the cassette, but I can't see much if any by eye. (So the current chains are effectively unworn) (And almost all my winter commuting miles in all kinds of weather fall on cogs 5, 6, and 7 (20t, 18t, 16t). The'll be by far the most worn.)

[Calnago]

I don't know... but I once had a badly worn cassette and wanted to always know how I could tell if a cassette is worn out by looking at it. I cleaned up all the cogs individually in degreaser so they were spotless. I then laid them out on a big piece of paper, and then underneath each cog I layed down the cogs from the brand new cassette I was about to replace it with. I stared at those cogs, and for the life of me I could not tell by the eye which one was really worn. So, mostly now I just go by the quality of the shift and noise as to knowing when it's time to replace a chain. I have multiple bikes and multiple wheels, lots of cassettes and stuff gets switched around. But before that, I remember keeping track on one bike with the same Campy cassette (no wheel changes, and would replace chains when measurements said it was time). I found that I could get two chains per one cassette. If I tried to put a third, brand new chain on that cassette... the shifting was terrible and would skip, or if it didn't right away... it would in not too long a time. So if I had one bike and needed a guideline to follow, it would be two chains per one cassette, then with the third chain replace the cassette as well.