Why no love for direct mount rim brake?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Really? Yes... sorry... HUGE aero advantage when you look at it from the side....
But did find one which shows how sturdy the 9100 stanard mounts are... these things are every bit as "stiff" as their DM counterparts...
Image

Oh, and here's the only other one I have kind of from the side, but when I tried to get a side view the wind was just so fierce that I couldn't hold the camera steady... must get an "aero" camera...
Image

Now... about that "mechanical advantage" you were talking about...?
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corky
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by corky

Cal... love you and yer rants.....😍

Galvanic corrosion can still occur on single mount brakes, between the nut and the mounting bolt. So I guess the chances are halved.......

Your point about splay and most especially that the mounts are threaded into the frame on DM brakes and thus making them vulnerable to ham fisted mechanics is Very valid.

Aero developments are yet to be exploited fully and I think that is one direction that it will make DM brakes easier to Head, ......yeah I know aero doesn’t bother you but it is the soup-du-jour of the industry a ce moment.

But I think there has been pressure on the industry to come up with a reaction to discs, a realisation that there has been little to no development in rim brakes since dual pivots and EE brakes. wether they are a development forward is something I need to experience for myself

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ha... a “rant”. You call that a rant? You ain’t seen nothin.
If corrosion happens between the brake bolt and the brake nut, big deal. You get a new brake. But at least your frame hasn’t been wrecked.
Pressure on the industry to come up with a reaction to discs? From who? Discs are the reaction to the fact it’s hard to improve upon the rim brake, a mature industry, and a need to reboot sales. The industry would love for everyone to throw every last rim brake bike into the ocean so they could sell completely new frames and components to all. Nothing rejuvenates sales in a mature market like forced obsolescence.
Direct mount brakes are an answer to...uh... nothing. Please do experience them for yourself.
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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

It's called anti seize...

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Exactly. And how many people actually use it. Of the several direct mount brakes I’ve worked on I haven’t seen one with antiseize applied and one that was installed completely dry. And I’m not afraid to admit I cringe every time I torque a direct mount bolt directly into the frame itself. Threads do wear out. Remind me to create a post about the process I went through to salvage a friend’s frame where the bottom bracket was threaded in “dry”. His wife finally called me saying he was embarrassed that he wrecked his Colnago trying to cut out the seized BB with a hacksaw. I said bring it over and after much faffing with a bench vise and some other tools managed to salvage the frame. And I finally got to use my Italian threaded cutting taps. Others might not have been so lucky.
I guess with DM brakes I just keep asking... why?
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XCProMD
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by XCProMD

“The industry” hasn’t “developed” DM brakes. It was Shimano. The others had to follow.

How many times SRAM and Campagnolo have been said to be “not up to the game” because they didn’t had released a DM brake yet?

That is exactly what DM was created for.


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I know what you’re trying to say, but one can’t deny Shimano’s dominance in the industry. I do feel the most sorry for Campagnolo, being so heavily entrenched in the road market, having to chase technologies they don’t necessarily believe in. They had little choice but to develop discs for road bikes given the trends just as SRAM had little choice but to abandon their “mechanical advantage” campaign and develop their own electronic system.
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Fiery
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by Fiery

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XCProMD
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by XCProMD

Calnago, from insiders, Campagnolo was intrigued with hydraulic discs and simply developed their own solution at the pace they saw fit. It’s a completely different way of engineering brakes with pros and cons that put another choice on the market and they where happy to be a part of it.

The DM brakes instead was a case of: “ now they want us to bolt calipers to frames in a different way or we will be incompatible”. As you have explained, there are no advantages to something tried and perfected for many years.

As you say, Shimano is in the position of telling how everyone has to interface with their stuff as they have a huge slice of the OEM pie. And they use it to their advantage, not anyone else’s


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fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:19 am
Exactly. And how many people actually use it. Of the several direct mount brakes I’ve worked on I haven’t seen one with antiseize applied and one that was installed completely dry. And I’m not afraid to admit I cringe every time I torque a direct mount bolt directly into the frame itself. Threads do wear out. Remind me to create a post about the process I went through to salvage a friend’s frame where the bottom bracket was threaded in “dry”. His wife finally called me saying he was embarrassed that he wrecked his Colnago trying to cut out the seized BB with a hacksaw. I said bring it over and after much faffing with a bench vise and some other tools managed to salvage the frame. And I finally got to use my Italian threaded cutting taps. Others might not have been so lucky.
I guess with DM brakes I just keep asking... why?
how is this any different than using cantis?
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fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:11 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:19 am
Exactly. And how many people actually use it. Of the several direct mount brakes I’ve worked on I haven’t seen one with antiseize applied and one that was installed completely dry. And I’m not afraid to admit I cringe every time I torque a direct mount bolt directly into the frame itself. Threads do wear out. Remind me to create a post about the process I went through to salvage a friend’s frame where the bottom bracket was threaded in “dry”. His wife finally called me saying he was embarrassed that he wrecked his Colnago trying to cut out the seized BB with a hacksaw. I said bring it over and after much faffing with a bench vise and some other tools managed to salvage the frame. And I finally got to use my Italian threaded cutting taps. Others might not have been so lucky.
I guess with DM brakes I just keep asking... why?
how is this any different than a cantilever set-up which has been used on bikes for years?

ok, i didn't think cantiliver breaks were some problematic technology
Last edited by fromtrektocolnago on Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

We’re getting into areas of some speculation now, but I do not really buy the “we’ve always been intrigued by discs but wanted to develop them at our own pace [very very slowly]” spin on things. Rather, I think they would have been just as happy to see discs be just a passing experiment with road bikes and breathe a sigh of relief when the experiment was over. Only when it became painfully obvious that discs had serious traction in the marketplace did they have little choice but to get Magura involved in an area they had little real expertise in. They were very behind. In the end (or now), they have produced by most accounts, a very fine product. Of course the current spin on their disc brakes’ extremely slow development is going to take on a more positive tone. They can’t very well be saying anything but at this point. They’ve got a good product and a good story re discs, but this is about DM rim brakes vs Standard Mount rim brakes. I believe they were at a point, especially in light of the larger tire trend where they had to make a decision on how they were going to update their rim brakes and they just chose to make some direct mount brakes because it looked like that’s the way things might be heading in the rim brake arena. Product development life cycles take time, and gambles are made, and this decision was made well before discs began catching on for real. Now here we are today, and because of discs, which have indeed caught on, there seems little reason to come out with a completely new rim brake design, especially when it doesn’t function any better and has some added disadvantages compared to standard mounts. As for Campy, their direct mounts do have substantially more clearance than their current skeleton rim brakes, but discs blow that advantage out of the water. So why bother? Because they just spent a lot of time and resources bringing them to market, that’s why. Timing is everything.

And I certainly can’t fault Shimano for wanting to capitalize on their huge dominance in the industry. Business is business. But I see people going on about non existent virtues without taking two seconds to really think about it. I’m just trying to get them to think about whether some of these changes are really beneficial or just changes for changes’ sake, rather than flock like sheep to something new just because it’s new.
It’s a crazy time in the industry. Everyone is trying to outguess the other as to what will take hold and what won’t. The shotguns of ideas are being blasted with little aim... and cyclists are like ducks all in a row. Shoot us, shoot us now!
@Corky, ha... now THAT’S a rant.
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XCProMD
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by XCProMD

Calnago, I happen to know what goes on at Campagnolo and other cycling related companies because I work for one of their suppliers. We’re often involved in the development process as a consequence.

Few know that the relationship between Magura and Campagnolo is much previous to the Italians developing their disc brakes. Again, disc brakes is something they were interested in developing, DM was something they didn’t believe in but had to do because there was the risk of it becoming a standard.

BTW, Shimano is also our customer although not in the region of my competence. I can’t blame they either for trying to increase their market share, revenues etc, that’s what companies do. What is weird and you’ll never see in other fields I work with (automotive, electronics, aerospace...) is the industry voluntarily giving a supplier such a large predominance. They’re already paying for it, of course.




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Calnago
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by Calnago

You may be right, and my ramblings were as I said, purely speculative, but I’m not sure that working for one of their suppliers gives much more insight into the actual decision making process of those that were making them. Why would they make Disc brakes at all if they really thought DM brakes were going to become the standard? Unlike Shimano or SRAM, they don’t have a solid, current foundation in mtn bike tech, despite their failed attempt years ago in that arena. It’s much more likely imo that disc brakes will become a standard given the state of things today. Or were they just trying to cover their bases. Campagnolo is tiny compared to Shimano... a failed guess can hurt them much more. They shelved the electronic stuff for a while early on and concentrated more on refining their mechanical drivetrains, basically taking a wait and see approach to the whole electronic thing, to see how Di2 was accepted by the marketplace.
My guess is really no better than yours in the end, and maybe yours is better than mine. I don’t know. I’m just expressing my thoughts here in this forum. And those that really do know the details behind Campagnolo’s decisions in this market for real, are not likely expressing them on forums like this.
But I’m curious, and since you already stated it... what was the extent of Maguras involvement with Campagnolo prior to the development of disc brakes for the Road market? Where else have they collaborated, I mean aside from perhaps back in the days when they were trying to get into the mtn bike world, or is that what you were referring to?
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by Weenie


pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Which one would you rather have?

Image

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