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Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:46 pm
by Alpine318is
Is it the deep section of the wheel that causes issues with descending or the fear of braking on carbon? If its the latter I would recommend your next bike be equipped with disc brakes. I think that would help with the confidence issues.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:50 pm
by diegogarcia
Alpine318is wrote:Is it the deep section of the wheel that causes issues with descending or the free of braking on carbon? If its the latter I would recommend your next bike be equipped with disc brakes. I think that would help with the confidence issues.


Likely a bit of both but more so, the way they handle once to road points down. I feel like Andy Schleck circa 2011 onwards...!!! :cry:

Ho hum. I am that close to pulling the trigger on the mavics today.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:54 pm
by RyanH
While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:58 pm
by diegogarcia
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:36 pm
by DaReef
The pressure build up and release on 404s is noticeable. I wouldn't expect cross wind impact to vary much between rims of a similar depth. I have 404s and Roval 50s. I prefer the Rovals for several reasons including slightly better handling at speed and with cross winds.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:11 pm
by dtsftw
Any similar experiences / issues with Enve 4.5s? Just about to pull the trigger on a pair.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:15 pm
by PinaF8
My enve 4.5s new brake tracks are performing really excellent. No issues at descending and feels very stable when crosswinds are present.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:27 pm
by guyc
diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:34 pm
by diegogarcia
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:36 pm
by guyc
diegogarcia wrote:
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....


Drop me a mail if I can help buddy

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:52 pm
by diegogarcia
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....


Drop me a mail if I can help buddy


Cheers bud - I am on the bike tomorrow and hoping for a lovely calm day where I can relax and let go. The Mavic wheels I linked are 2017 looking at the spec and look good too, as a good middle diddle wheel, not carbon clincher, not exclusively all wheel and no braking track etc and I do like the exalith treatment. The other things I suppose is that there is nothing wrong with careful descending though it does take the fun out of it at times .... such a weird thing to convey on a forum, the feeling that is.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:06 pm
by DaReef
PinaF8 wrote:My enve 4.5s new brake tracks are performing really excellent. No issues at descending and feels very stable when crosswinds are present.


It seems like the manufacturers have got the breaking figured out. My Boyds, Zipps, and Rovals all are fantastic at breaking dry and wet.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:07 pm
by wingguy
You've been talking a lot about trying to relax and let go on the bike - but make sure you're not overcompensating. You still need weight through the front wheel to control and steer the bike. Relaxing means being limber, not trying to float your hands off the bar. In particular if you're shifting your weight further back on the bike to try and keep your hands light it'll make the front wheel extremely vulnerable to crosswinds. Not teaching you how to suck eggs or anything, Just a thought that in trying to overcome the mental block you might be 'relaxing' too much!

Other thought would be to go and session one particular downhill. If you have one that's open, flowing and potentially fast but not super steep go and do a few back to back runs with a bit more speed each time.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:19 pm
by kode54
i never crash going uphill...but all my crashes happen either going fast which includes downhill. that said, i feel the OP's pain or rather tendency to hold back. i've tried all wheel depths. that's not the issue. like others have said, you tend to hold back or tighten up and not letting go.
doesn't bother me that many pass me up going downhill...i just make it a point to pass them going up. i have no problems with that.

Re: Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:45 am
by thedonnydino
I had the same situation (death wobbles) on my Rovals. It took a while to get my confidence back. I've since raced crits with 45k/h cross winds on my Roval CLX64s.

Also, I have learnt to anticipate cross winds and wobbles in certain situation. For instance, riding through intersections, transitioning through areas with no trees/buildings.

Notwithstanding the above, alloys and shallow rims are easier to live with. If you don't really need deep dish, or don't see the benefit, spare yourself the headache.