Real world use of ZIpp 404 firecrest - I am struggling. Advice req.

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Alpine318is
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:30 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by Alpine318is

Is it the deep section of the wheel that causes issues with descending or the fear of braking on carbon? If its the latter I would recommend your next bike be equipped with disc brakes. I think that would help with the confidence issues.
Last edited by Alpine318is on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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diegogarcia
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

Alpine318is wrote:Is it the deep section of the wheel that causes issues with descending or the free of braking on carbon? If its the latter I would recommend your next bike be equipped with disc brakes. I think that would help with the confidence issues.


Likely a bit of both but more so, the way they handle once to road points down. I feel like Andy Schleck circa 2011 onwards...!!! :cry:

Ho hum. I am that close to pulling the trigger on the mavics today.

RyanH
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by RyanH

While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.
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diegogarcia
Posts: 470
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by diegogarcia

RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.

DaReef
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:36 am

by DaReef

The pressure build up and release on 404s is noticeable. I wouldn't expect cross wind impact to vary much between rims of a similar depth. I have 404s and Roval 50s. I prefer the Rovals for several reasons including slightly better handling at speed and with cross winds.

dtsftw
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:09 pm

by dtsftw

Any similar experiences / issues with Enve 4.5s? Just about to pull the trigger on a pair.

PinaF8
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:05 am

by PinaF8

My enve 4.5s new brake tracks are performing really excellent. No issues at descending and feels very stable when crosswinds are present.
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guyc
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by guyc

diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!

diegogarcia
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....

guyc
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Location: Hampshire, England
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by guyc

diegogarcia wrote:
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
RyanH wrote:While I don't want to speak for the OP, in my case it was that the bike became darty above 40mph. It wasn't limited to descending either. Drafting a semi which has a lot of turbulence would be just as hairy. While I'm sure you can get used to it, for me it wasn't a pleasant feeling having the bike move when you aren't causing it. Meanwhile, on my ThirtyTwos and FortySix's, I could descend 40+mph with one hand and not think much of it.


You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....


Drop me a mail if I can help buddy

diegogarcia
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:31 pm

by diegogarcia

guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
guyc wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
You have it nailed. This is exactly as I would describe it. An HGV passing can cause mayhem. Literally never experienced anything like it. When the bike was bought, the Bontrager AURA TL5 were fine, I got the bike on a deal from a shop and sold them on, though I could descend with confidence and speed. The 404 have become the issue which I never really expected. It may simply be a permutation of bike and wheels creating terbulence, but posting here is the first step to sorting, like going to AA if you like as it were an issue growing in my head and thus on the bike despite speaking to fellow poster and long standing friend Gweeds amongst others. All food for thought thanks for any input.


Pete

(I'm the Gweeds he mentions)

I reckon you need to get shot of them and try something like a 35mm or 40mm.

But I'd look at the newer Cosmic Pro Carbon SL's rather than those older ones. They're better in crosswinds, wider, and the braking is superb....

They're just wheels and you need to ride something that you trust if the chicken wings aren't doing the trick!


I hear you bud, and as ever thanks. Backed into a corner really as need to sell to buy, though I can use CC, I cant keep spending but want to love the Zipps....


Drop me a mail if I can help buddy


Cheers bud - I am on the bike tomorrow and hoping for a lovely calm day where I can relax and let go. The Mavic wheels I linked are 2017 looking at the spec and look good too, as a good middle diddle wheel, not carbon clincher, not exclusively all wheel and no braking track etc and I do like the exalith treatment. The other things I suppose is that there is nothing wrong with careful descending though it does take the fun out of it at times .... such a weird thing to convey on a forum, the feeling that is.

DaReef
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:36 am

by DaReef

PinaF8 wrote:My enve 4.5s new brake tracks are performing really excellent. No issues at descending and feels very stable when crosswinds are present.


It seems like the manufacturers have got the breaking figured out. My Boyds, Zipps, and Rovals all are fantastic at breaking dry and wet.

wingguy
Posts: 3747
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

You've been talking a lot about trying to relax and let go on the bike - but make sure you're not overcompensating. You still need weight through the front wheel to control and steer the bike. Relaxing means being limber, not trying to float your hands off the bar. In particular if you're shifting your weight further back on the bike to try and keep your hands light it'll make the front wheel extremely vulnerable to crosswinds. Not teaching you how to suck eggs or anything, Just a thought that in trying to overcome the mental block you might be 'relaxing' too much!

Other thought would be to go and session one particular downhill. If you have one that's open, flowing and potentially fast but not super steep go and do a few back to back runs with a bit more speed each time.

kode54
Posts: 1163
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

i never crash going uphill...but all my crashes happen either going fast which includes downhill. that said, i feel the OP's pain or rather tendency to hold back. i've tried all wheel depths. that's not the issue. like others have said, you tend to hold back or tighten up and not letting go.
doesn't bother me that many pass me up going downhill...i just make it a point to pass them going up. i have no problems with that.
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

thedonnydino
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:10 pm

by thedonnydino

I had the same situation (death wobbles) on my Rovals. It took a while to get my confidence back. I've since raced crits with 45k/h cross winds on my Roval CLX64s.

Also, I have learnt to anticipate cross winds and wobbles in certain situation. For instance, riding through intersections, transitioning through areas with no trees/buildings.

Notwithstanding the above, alloys and shallow rims are easier to live with. If you don't really need deep dish, or don't see the benefit, spare yourself the headache.

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