Sram red 22 VS Campagnolo Super Record VS Shimano 9100

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

MyM3Coupe wrote:
tommasini wrote:Good point as for the most part bb30 is an ok idea that caused more problems than solutions. Thus on the way out

Installed correctly, BB30 is fine 99% of the time, and builds up a light frame. It's only "going out" as it's expensive as hell to install it correctly (wicked tolerances). It's not good for mass produced frames. I have two Time frames with thousands of miles with BB30 and the cranks spin beautifully.
On the topic SCAM is light as it's crap. Several people in out riding groups have had issues with it. It's either Shimano or Campagnolo for long lasting components.

BB30, while never really been fully adopted as Cannondale would have hoped, has other issues than strictly being "expensive as hell to install correctly". That part, sadly, has stuck with us in the form of all kinds of press fit proliferations, regardless of whether BB30 is employed or not. But something that rarely gets touched on is that one of the main reasons for BB30 in the first place was to be able to use a larger diameter spindle made of aluminum alloy and have the whole thing be stiff and light. Trouble is, aluminum alloy is arguably just not a very good material for that application. It expands and contracts with temperature changes quite readily, far more readily than steel. I'm sure you're aware of people freezing their aluminum spindles to get them installed through the bearings. And those bearing tolerances need to be adhered to, so it was a perfect storm of imperfect installations in imperfectly round shells and surfaces rubbing on each other to create that incessant creak creak creak that has become so prevalent in today's bike world. It's nice that frame manufacturers have larger bb shells to center their frame designs around, but maybe the steel ~24mm spindle is still simply the strongest, most reliable and trouble free form to attach a couple of crank arms to and still be able to have room for good size reliable bearings under all circumstances.
Last edited by Calnago on Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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4ibanez
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by 4ibanez

Sram getting the hate, but it's DA that severs people's cables and their exploding cassettes. I find the shifting of Red 22 very precise and fast. DA is a lighter action, but I find it kinda vague compared to Red, which just clicks into gear the second you hit that shifter paddle.

Unlike Campy, no stetching out for the little button placed just in the most inconvenient place where you can barely reach it from the drops. Campy spare parts supposedly hard to source and their components stupidly expensive.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's subjective for all of us individuals, but you can pick problems with anything. On the WW forum you can't discount the group that has the lightest shifters, RD and cassette that give up literally nothing in pure performance terms.

AZK
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:11 am

by AZK

Look595 wrote:Curious on how can the Sram red 22 groupset be 200 grams lighter than the Campagnolo SR and Shimano Dura-ace 9100 groupset as a whole. How come the other 2 brands still cannot cut the total weight any further as to the same as Sram Red 22 :noidea:


Just a bit of fun using the Total cycling weights sent earlier in this thread, Campagnolo also had a 30mm option (Over-Torque) really great design which sadly never took off.

Combined with a direct pressfit bearing (not pf30/bb386) not the greatest solution.

Total cycling weights

RD 155
FD 72
ERGO 330
Cassette 177
Chain 239
Calipers 122x2 singles pivots, madness? (bikerumor actual weights)
Ultra Comp 563 claimed
BB30 54 claimed

SR as above 1834g
RED GXP 1868g (as per total cycling table)

Considering Campagnolo Over-Torque can be used in basically any bike BB shell besides bb90 (no space for the bearings due to the 37mm ID) should we consider it the lightest groupset on the planet?

Yes the Sram red bb30 option is 1764g (total cycling) but afaik it still uses the shorter spindle which cannot clear wider frames, unlike the OT crank which can be used from BSA threaded up till BB386EVO.


guyc wrote:Because they're a little more conservative and build their kit with longevity and durability in mind. Most would agree that SRAM kit, as great as it is, isn't as durable.


Unfortunaley I have to agree with this, going through two sets of RED double tap shifters. the internals just don't last as long. That being said the RED cassette design is just years ahead imho. They made it lighter but also more durable due to the smart engineering design. really wish Campagnolo would (if they even could )do something similar.

Or maybe Sram should ditch Shimano and make a Campagnolo splined and tuned version (Blasphemy!!!!)....that will be the day all Hell breaks out.

Kumppa
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:05 am

by Kumppa

I have read SR cassette isn't very durability and Red cassette don't mix very well with Campy (slower shifting). So do anyone have any km's for SR cassettes, even 10k km possibly with clean drivetrain and dry conditions or what is exatly "poor durability"?

Probably need change my old 10ps Red soon and thinking about getting SR over Red22 as shifters + derailleurs upgrade would cost almost the same. SR cassette just cost massive 350€ vs Red 200€ so if theres some durability problems it don't sound very good deal. Chorus cassette would be good choise but weight difference would come even bigger so not very interested for it.

And for now before groupset update I need decide which Dzero model I get, Red or Quarq. Rest of the bike is matte black so Red model would look better on it but if I decide go for Campy later on Quarq model would be only choise. Ofc with Red22 groupset Red model would look better.

Atm leaning 60/40 for Red becouse of I have used it little bit and it works fine, cassettes cost less + steel and Red dzero would look better with matte bike. SRs strengts would be looks, maybe better ergonomic for wrists and I have never used Campy before so something new.

Hard choices. SR cassette is the biggest question mark.

avispa
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

guyc wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:39 pm
Because they're a little more conservative and build their kit with longevity and durability in mind. Most would agree that SRAM kit, as great as it is, isn't as durable.
I helped a friend not too long ago wrap his handlebars with new tape. When I removed the old tape, I saw the shifter clamps getting rusted and the metal used was cheap and unpolished, it almost looked like a tin can had been cut to form those rings... I was in disbelief when he told me his SRAM group was just 3 months old!

In general, I saw that this group was not refined at all. Cheap screws and parts everywhere... But like a friend once told me, we Americans do not seek quality, we want everything cheap. I have always said that SRAM would have never achieved a wireless $2600 group with high quality parts.
Last edited by avispa on Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

tommasini wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:23 am
Good point as for the most part bb30 is an ok idea that caused more problems than solutions. Thus on the way out
Curious what BB you believe is in the process of superseding BB30? Your supposition is in opposition to what Specialized did a short time ago with their BB's. The flagship S-works bikes all had what they coined "carbon OSBB" which was effectively 61mm PF30...an abomination that caused high warranty for the company because of awful two part delrin bushing and separate BB30 bearing assembly. Ultimately after years of disaster for customers on their top race bikes they replaced this with BB30 which is much more reliable. BB30 with Loctite FWIW is utterly reliable.

Trek uses 'carbon bores' on their BB90 which is much worse than BB30. BB86 uses smaller bearings than BB30.

Yes, many of us prefer BSA, English or Italian...what Pinarello went back to after falling into the PF30 boundless hole of ineptness. BSA peaks it utterly reliable head out throughout the bike industry. Are wide shell BB's really proven to be any better when the TdF keeps winning with narrow BB's like Pinarello and Specialized?

So, what trend do you see replacing BB30 with all the wide shell BB's out there that companies use almost exclusively for marketing?

Wookski
Posts: 664
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

Aren’t we ignoring the most critical elements? Super record is the best looking groupset by far and it has the word “Super” in its name. I’ll always take super over not super.

freehub
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 pm

by freehub

Wookski wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm
Aren’t we ignoring the most critical elements? Super record is the best looking groupset by far and it has the word “Super” in its name. I’ll always take super over not super.
To me what wins the contest hands down forgive the pun are the ergonomics of Campy...separate thumb button and lever.
Don't want the occasional mis-shift of double tap or the floppy brake lever of Shimano. Ridden all three.
Handful of grams doesn't mean much to me. Besides, I mix groupsets anyway...Shimano brakes + crankset + Campy mechanical.
Don't need SR or Record. Chorus is fine.

All said, each do the job nicely. Personal preference.

Wookski
Posts: 664
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 am

by Wookski

freehub wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:14 pm
To me what wins the contest hands down forgive the pun are the ergonomics of Campy...separate thumb button and lever.
Don't want the occasional mis-shift of double tap or the floppy brake lever of Shimano. Ridden all three.
Handful of grams doesn't mean much to me. Besides, I mix groupsets anyway...Shimano brakes + crankset + Campy mechanical.
Don't need SR or Record. Chorus is fine.

All said, each do the job nicely. Personal preference.
Oh no Shimagnolo!

maxo2
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:48 am

by maxo2

Weight matters ...just ask a formula one engineer.

MyM3Coupe
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm

by MyM3Coupe

guyc wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:39 pm
Most would agree that SRAM kit, as great as it is, isn't as durable.
Agree. SCAM is a garbage group. The few I know that use it have had various issues with it. With Shimano and Campy around I’m amazed they are still around. Additionally, their components are aesthetically hideous.

morganb
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm

by morganb

I worked in bike shops for years and the SRAM to other manufacturers failure rate, on the conservative side was 10 to 1. This ratio increases when you start including SRAM family products like Quarq. Their warranty process was the generally the easiest of any of the major manufacturers but this was probably because they did it the most. Shifters ratcheting mechanisms failled all the time RD springs broke in every level of derailleur, etc.

moonoi
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:04 pm

by moonoi

Kumppa wrote:I have read SR cassette isn't very durability and Red cassette don't mix very well with Campy (slower shifting). So do anyone have any km's for SR cassettes, even 10k km possibly with clean drivetrain and dry conditions or what is exatly "poor durability"?

Probably need change my old 10ps Red soon and thinking about getting SR over Red22 as shifters + derailleurs upgrade would cost almost the same. SR cassette just cost massive 350€ vs Red 200€ so if theres some durability problems it don't sound very good deal. Chorus cassette would be good choise but weight difference would come even bigger so not very interested for it.

And for now before groupset update I need decide which Dzero model I get, Red or Quarq. Rest of the bike is matte black so Red model would look better on it but if I decide go for Campy later on Quarq model would be only choise. Ofc with Red22 groupset Red model would look better.

Atm leaning 60/40 for Red becouse of I have used it little bit and it works fine, cassettes cost less + steel and Red dzero would look better with matte bike. SRs strengts would be looks, maybe better ergonomic for wrists and I have never used Campy before so something new.

Hard choices. SR cassette is the biggest question mark.
I've been running a SRAM Red cassette without issue with my otherwise SR groupset. Shifts nice and slick, no noise either.

I've never heard of this slow shifting thing and certainly never experienced it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


avispa
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

maxo2 wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:49 pm
Weight matters ...just ask a formula one engineer.
Definitelly! As long as we ar riding our bikes at that speed! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1537
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

For me I take the best from each company. I run Shimano 9150 Di2 but my crank/powermeter is a Quarq DFour. My wheels are Campy Bora 50 and Fulcrum Quattro Carbon. I also have Sram xDome cassettes. I have had Shimano wheels in the past and they are awful weight-wise compared to the Campy wheels, at least on the clincher models. For me all of these parts work well together and I don't really care what people think when they see a bike with such a mix bag of component brands.

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