The tarmac pro is actually 10r carbon. From s weight perspective, I believe it is 100-200 gram difference. The 12r frame will be stiffer as well. Are these differences worth $1500 usd? Up to the customer/rider.Kevinch76 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:43 amHow different is S-works from normal tarmac? I believe the weight difference is quite negligble other than bragging the "S-WORKs" logo...believe the difference is minimal? Anyone can enlighten me on this..just curious... probably quality of the FACT carbon..S-works Fact 12....Tarmac pro...Fact 11?
S-Works SL 2018
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in my experience, this is a common misconception and has been confirmed by people at Specialized within the SBCU group.... S-Works bikes are NOT stiffer, they use a higher quality of carbon allowing the engineers to acheive the desired level of stiffness while using less carbon, that's where the weight savings comes from. I've ridden the 10R 1st gen. Venge Pro and 11R 1st gen. S-Works Venge back to back and there was no discernible level of stiffness diference.
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Not only that, but Higher stiffness carbon generally are not stronger/more durable than mid grade carbon fiber. In many case, it sacrifice strength for extra stiffness for the same amount of carbon. And you use less of it to get the same stiffness on lighter frame. Therefore, impact resistance and durability is generally better on mid grade than top grade frameset.CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:18 pmin my experience, this is a common misconception and has been confirmed by people at Specialized within the SBCU group.... S-Works bikes are NOT stiffer, they use a higher quality of carbon allowing the engineers to acheive the desired level of stiffness while using less carbon, that's where the weight savings comes from. I've ridden the 10R 1st gen. Venge Pro and 11R 1st gen. S-Works Venge back to back and there was no discernible level of stiffness diference.
How about weight diff on the Tarmac S-Works vs. Pro...maybe as a % or average since we are talking about a specific frame size.
Hexsense wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:28 pmNot only that, but Higher stiffness carbon generally are not stronger/more durable than mid grade carbon fiber. In many case, it sacrifice strength for extra stiffness for the same amount of carbon. And you use less of it to get the same stiffness on lighter frame. Therefore, impact resistance and durability is generally better on mid grade than top grade frameset.CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:18 pmin my experience, this is a common misconception and has been confirmed by people at Specialized within the SBCU group.... S-Works bikes are NOT stiffer, they use a higher quality of carbon allowing the engineers to acheive the desired level of stiffness while using less carbon, that's where the weight savings comes from. I've ridden the 10R 1st gen. Venge Pro and 11R 1st gen. S-Works Venge back to back and there was no discernible level of stiffness diference.
I wholeheartedly agree an average (and even above average) rider could not tell the difference in stiffness. Specialized has said that pro riders can “feel” weight, but often times incorrectly pick which bike is actually stiffer. With that said, I would love to see test data between the framsets. If frames are equally stiff, the consumer is paying $1500 for 150 gram weight savings?CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:18 pmin my experience, this is a common misconception and has been confirmed by people at Specialized within the SBCU group.... S-Works bikes are NOT stiffer, they use a higher quality of carbon allowing the engineers to acheive the desired level of stiffness while using less carbon, that's where the weight savings comes from. I've ridden the 10R 1st gen. Venge Pro and 11R 1st gen. S-Works Venge back to back and there was no discernible level of stiffness diference.
My Expert frame came out lighter than some of the S-Works frames posted here, albeit those with the heavier paint schemes. Still I doubt that a two tone fade paint is light considering I scratched my bike and could see the other color underneath.
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Not just weight savings... that is perhaps the only performance difference, but there are color differences, branding differences etc... all of those thigs matter and are important to consumers. They may not be imprtant to you, but they do effect the decisions of some people.
And now I am being told that the S-works might not guarantee weight savings...so now there is a chance that someone is spending the extra $1500 on a paint job, a badging, and a more brittle bike? Just thinking about all the time wasted “developing” the 12r carbon when there was negligible gain.CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:07 pmNot just weight savings... that is perhaps the only performance difference, but there are color differences, branding differences etc... all of those thigs matter and are important to consumers. They may not be imprtant to you, but they do effect the decisions of some people.
That's 90% of the buyers. They have the scratch, want the top-of-the-line model, but likely ride 2x/month and pushing the weight max for the bike. Performance is irrelevant.
CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:07 pmNot just weight savings... that is perhaps the only performance difference, but there are color differences, branding differences etc... all of those thigs matter and are important to consumers. They may not be imprtant to you, but they do effect the decisions of some people.
I did some research on this back when the SL4 Tarmac was released and there were a lot of SL3 case examples floating around. I ended up at the same conclusion LBoogie28 mentioned - between a S-Works and a Pro frameset in similar size and paint, one can expect a weight difference of 100-200g. XS size may be only a bit over 100g and an XL may be almost 200g. Of course if a sample Pro has a bright paint job and the S-Works is bare carbon with clear coat, the difference can end up clearly over 250g.sfo423 wrote:How about weight diff on the Tarmac S-Works vs. Pro...maybe as a % or average since we are talking about a specific frame size.
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Based on my knowledge the weight difference between a Comp and a Pro frame has previously been less than 100g, but now with the SL6 there seem to be some clear differences in the construction (Comp has a round seatpost and at least the seatstays are shaped differently) and that might make the Comp even heavier in a direct comparison.
I don't see too many s-works around here but "fat guys that ride 2x/month" haven't been on any of them. The slowest guy on one I know is probably my dad who is 61 and only started riding 4 years ago. On flattish roads he can average 20ish in a group ride which I think is great given his age and late start into cycling. I'm sure there are fat slow guys that will buy them but 90% seems way off base.sfo423 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:35 pmThat's 90% of the buyers. They have the scratch, want the top-of-the-line model, but likely ride 2x/month and pushing the weight max for the bike. Performance is irrelevant.
CrankAddictsRich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:07 pmNot just weight savings... that is perhaps the only performance difference, but there are color differences, branding differences etc... all of those thigs matter and are important to consumers. They may not be imprtant to you, but they do effect the decisions of some people.
Comp model comes with threaded BB, which is another weight penalty. It’s a bonus for meJugi wrote:I did some research on this back when the SL4 Tarmac was released and there were a lot of SL3 case examples floating around. I ended up at the same conclusion LBoogie28 mentioned - between a S-Works and a Pro frameset in similar size and paint, one can expect a weight difference of 100-200g. XS size may be only a bit over 100g and an XL may be almost 200g. Of course if a sample Pro has a bright paint job and the S-Works is bare carbon with clear coat, the difference can end up clearly over 250g.sfo423 wrote:How about weight diff on the Tarmac S-Works vs. Pro...maybe as a % or average since we are talking about a specific frame size.
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Based on my knowledge the weight difference between a Comp and a Pro frame has previously been less than 100g, but now with the SL6 there seem to be some clear differences in the construction (Comp has a round seatpost and at least the seatstays are shaped differently) and that might make the Comp even heavier in a direct comparison.
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I did ride an S-Works SL4 back to back with my Pro SL4 (10r) and the S-Works had a certain level of "snap" to it that could be felt compared to the Pro. That sensation, king of like riding a pair of stiff skis compared to a pair of flexier ones, was much more noticeable than any weight difference.
Not sure this has any impact on performance, but I felt that difference.
Not sure this has any impact on performance, but I felt that difference.
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