Shimano Technical Q&A. :)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
metabo
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:02 am

by metabo

- Why most of your groupsets and wheels look so bad?

Yeah, it'd be offending, but for me it's about the only (yet big) issue with them. Not pretending Campy, Sram, or other numerous wheel manufactures always do stellar jobs, yet Shimano has been pretty bad, so consistently bad with their appearances, regardless of any grade, any era.

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jekyll man
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Location: Pack filler

by jekyll man

pdlpsher1 wrote:
jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
trimenc wrote:When will we see wireless Di2? Real WIREless (No wires at all)


I could see wireless as beneficial on a MTB where it's more difficult to have internal wiring. But on a road bike I really don't see a need. Nowadays bike manufacturers are including internal mechanical/electronic wire routing options. Once the wires are installed (easily using the magnet tool) the benefits of a wired system outweighs a wireless system.



Assemble many bikes (as in for a living), and you will see what the true benefits of a wireless system are.
Build time drastically reduced.

Performance benefit? Negligible, but then again i dont see the improvement over mechanical anyway.


It really doesn't take long to route several cables inside a frame. How much time do you save?



Reread what I wrote.
I wasn't talking about pdlpshr1, and his n+1 experience of maybe building his baby up. I'm talking about the guys in shops, on the factory floor assembling the things everyday.
Remember, not all bikes are created equal. Things can vary drastically between designs and build quality as to how to easy it might be to "pop a few wires through". Esp the case with carbon frames and what is left in there, and BB designs.
Also internally routed bars.
Have you ever cabled up a TT bike with an integrated front end? Even aero road bars such as aeronovas can be a pain if they want.
Any snagging is a potential problem later on; there are plenty of stories of poor connections in frames to batteries, on gear levers, which all take time to diagnose and correct.

From a manufacturers POV, wireless etap must be a godsend. None of that hassle; just bolt something on the outside and its done. Also a few minutes here, a few there, and all of a sudden, their output has increased. If a process can be removed, everyone's a winner.





Back to the original topic; why is the finish on the chainsets so poor? Scuffs off the minute you look at it?
Official cafe stop tester

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Calnago
Posts: 5788
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Re what @jekyll_man just wrote... completely agree. The cost savings in time assembling a bike is huge if you don't have to use cables. I know how long I spend to make sure the cabling is just right, and I wouldn't want to be on the clock doing it. Still, I prefer the end result of a mechanical system done right. From a performance standpoint, the benefit of wireless is nil and there are downsides as well.

To Shimano... have you changed the 90 degree bend cable routing in your mechanical shifters to help with the cable breaking issue?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Dez33
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

by Dez33

jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
trimenc wrote:When will we see wireless Di2? Real WIREless (No wires at all)


I could see wireless as beneficial on a MTB where it's more difficult to have internal wiring. But on a road bike I really don't see a need. Nowadays bike manufacturers are including internal mechanical/electronic wire routing options. Once the wires are installed (easily using the magnet tool) the benefits of a wired system outweighs a wireless system.



Assemble many bikes (as in for a living), and you will see what the true benefits of a wireless system are.
Build time drastically reduced.

Performance benefit? Negligible, but then again i dont see the improvement over mechanical anyway.


It really doesn't take long to route several cables inside a frame. How much time do you save?



Reread what I wrote.
I wasn't talking about pdlpshr1, and his n+1 experience of maybe building his baby up. I'm talking about the guys in shops, on the factory floor assembling the things everyday.
Remember, not all bikes are created equal. Things can vary drastically between designs and build quality as to how to easy it might be to "pop a few wires through". Esp the case with carbon frames and what is left in there, and BB designs.
Also internally routed bars.
Have you ever cabled up a TT bike with an integrated front end? Even aero road bars such as aeronovas can be a pain if they want.


That's why I like the concept of the FSA system with the wireless front, but wired rear. Wired rear is a breeze to install and you don't have all the aesthetic issues of the front with the wireless levers, and you don't have the ugly looking etap battery on the rear deraileur. No doubt FSA's execution will be poor though.

So leading back to the OP's post .... question them on the patents that are out there for a similar system to FSA's. And, is that why the Di2 system is being delayed?

And while you are at it, with the injuries that resulted from 9000 cassette failures ... how close did they get to deciding on a recall?

MyM3Coupe
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm

by MyM3Coupe

Hello all, my first post here. I'd love to ask why it is that Dura Ace mechanical doesn't have multi-shift functions like Campagnolo has in their Chorus and up group. It seems crazy as hell they don't have it. I can navigate through my gears (Super Record) as fast, if not faster than an electric gear set. For me it's a deal breaker.

PrimO
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:49 pm

by PrimO

Why oh why cant we have a 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 27, 28 cassette! Or any custom spec cassette for that matter.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

Where's a good bar and lets have a drink.

That way you could ask much more than one question and get the real answers.

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F45
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

When are cable groupsets going to be totally eliminated?

MyM3Coupe
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm

by MyM3Coupe

F45 wrote:When are cable groupsets going to be totally eliminated?

I'm going to say never, as it's like the time in the '70s when quartz watches came to be, and talk of the demise of the mechanical watch commonplace. It never happened as many saw the beauty of a nice mechanical watch.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

It's more likely that eventually people will come to a realization of "uh... why did we go electric in the first place... it needs batteries, it needs charging, the updates are annoying and things aren't compatible in a very short period of time, and when it stops I can't figure out what's wrong with it... and oh yeah, it doesn't do anything that my mechanical system didn't do, except I had more control over my mechanical shifting and my mechanical system is so much prettier to look at... and it's a bicycle... pure and simple. I want to go back, please, take me back".
:beerchug:
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Richt1978
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:55 pm

by Richt1978

I have a couple of electric groupset bikes in the fleet, and as much as I like certain things about they shifting, my underlining concern is always reliability. One bike had a niggle where it just would die mid ride, once on 100 mile ride and then again on 25 mile TT - that seemed to get sorted with a firmware update (something for most people would be fairly simple, but as a Mac user it meant I had to take it to a shop) has left me untrusting of having no mechanical bikes in the fleet.

At present would feel uncomfortable going abroad on a training camp or holiday without a cable operated bike.

Next build is going to be mechanical again replacing a trusted mechanical bike that I have taken on all my foreign jaunts!

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hjb1000
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Australia

by hjb1000

This is fun....

-Why do you insist on 24mm spindle and not 30mm?
-Why are your mech STI shifters so damn heavy compared to SRAM- I mean Dura Ace is like 100g more than SRAM...
-Why do you continue to use exotic materials in your top of the line cassettes (CFRP and Titanium) yet they aren't that light and often creak?
-Why do you change the BCD off your road and mtb cranks at every product refresh?
-Why did it take you until 2016 to offer a KMC/SRAM style quick link chain connector?

RStoR
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:25 pm
Location: NC USA
Contact:

by RStoR

Why isn't the sprint shifter port available on Di2 hydro levers?
Chris B

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F45
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

Calnago wrote:It's more likely that eventually people will come to a realization of "uh... why did we go electric in the first place... it needs batteries, it needs charging, the updates are annoying and things aren't compatible in a very short period of time, and when it stops I can't figure out what's wrong with it... and oh yeah, it doesn't do anything that my mechanical system didn't do, except I had more control over my mechanical shifting and my mechanical system is so much prettier to look at... and it's a bicycle... pure and simple. I want to go back, please, take me back".
:beerchug:


I like mechanical. I just don't like the way Shimano does it. They should design a linear pull that doesn't require a 90 degree bend inside the shifter or put gummy coatings on their cables and then charge $20 for two shifter cables.

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Calnago
Posts: 5788
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ha, re the 90 degree cable bend... that was my request about a page ago... and you're right about the fuzzy coating on cables as well. But I guess they've got a nice little revenue stream going from people having to replace cables far too frequently... are you saying they haven't changed that in the new shifters? If not, shame on them.

Calnago wrote:...To Shimano... have you changed the 90 degree bend cable routing in your mechanical shifters to help with the cable breaking issue?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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