New Extralite carbon frame

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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wheelsONfire
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

My concerns for a custom built super light weight frame would be durability and safety.
Locally i have noticed there are more guys who have had cracked light weight frames.
(Both road and Mtb frames)
It seems it comes to a sweet spot and then they simply get to brittle.
A numerous production of a certain size could and should have been tested,
but for full custom under 600 grams i would wonder if that is resonable?
I am dead sure that all these super light frames have rolling updates as fails for sure will come and we will
never hear about more than a fraction of them. No matter what brands we talk of here.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

by Weenie


RussellS
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

wheelsONfire wrote:My concerns for a custom built super light weight frame would be durability and safety.
Locally i have noticed there are more guys who have had cracked light weight frames.
(Both road and Mtb frames)
It seems it comes to a sweet spot and then they simply get to brittle.
A numerous production of a certain size could and should have been tested,
but for full custom under 600 grams i would wonder if that is resonable?
I am dead sure that all these super light frames have rolling updates as fails for sure will come and we will
never hear about more than a fraction of them. No matter what brands we talk of here.


You ride an AX Lightness Vial EVO D frameset with a weight around 700 grams. And THM fork around 275 grams. So to you 700 grams means its durable and safe and won't crack. But 600 grams and its take your life in your hands? Where exactly is this sweet spot where the frame gets too brittle? Is 700 SAFE and 600 BRITTLE? 100 grams is 14% of a 700 gram frame. Significant? And what about forks? THM makes some that are 250 grams. Your 275 fork is pretty close. Seems to me forks take the brunt on any ride. They are directly impacted when you hit holes, cracks, rocks. The frame is cushioned from direct impacts because the fork receives the direct force! The fork is in the most danger. Why isn't everyone screaming about all the unsafe, dangerous, deadly lightweight forks?

MyM3Coupe
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm

by MyM3Coupe

wheelsONfire wrote:My concerns for a custom built super light weight frame would be durability and safety.

This is why I'm a huge fan of Time road frames. They are adequately light, and they are also extremely durable.

spdntrxi
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I'm still extremely interested in this frame.. keep the info coming.

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userfriendly
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Location: Kingdom of Fife, Scotland

by userfriendly

BikeonlineIT wrote:Cable routing will rest external, that's the lightest, reliable way to have the best shifting performance with mechanical groupsets


Finally someone says it. :lol: Internal routing is of the devil.

(Unless you're talking about electronic shifting.)
Cinelli Saetta 6.5kg - nice and dry weather
Reilly T325 7.3kg - nice weather but windy
Spa Audax 9.1kg - all weather steel beauty
Pinnacle Dolomite 7.9kg - flat-pedal chainguard thing
M∆SON Definition 8.5kg - off-road ... thing

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I would definitely go electronic with this baby.. so I'm slightly bummed about external..

donald
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Location: san francisco ca. usa

by donald

My 600 gram, 54 cm. Ruegamer is almost 10 years old with over 60,000 miles on it. Many of the miles have been on some very rough roads. I feel it can continue to easily go another 10 years without a problem.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

spdntrxi wrote:I would definitely go electronic with this baby.. so I'm slightly bummed about external..

Etap and shaved shufting lugs.
I-Links and Ti cables on EE calipers ;)
Using Tapatalk

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

RussellS wrote:
wheelsONfire wrote:My concerns for a custom built super light weight frame would be durability and safety.
Locally i have noticed there are more guys who have had cracked light weight frames.
(Both road and Mtb frames)
It seems it comes to a sweet spot and then they simply get to brittle.
A numerous production of a certain size could and should have been tested,
but for full custom under 600 grams i would wonder if that is resonable?
I am dead sure that all these super light frames have rolling updates as fails for sure will come and we will
never hear about more than a fraction of them. No matter what brands we talk of here.


You ride an AX Lightness Vial EVO D frameset with a weight around 700 grams. And THM fork around 275 grams. So to you 700 grams means its durable and safe and won't crack. But 600 grams and its take your life in your hands? Where exactly is this sweet spot where the frame gets too brittle? Is 700 SAFE and 600 BRITTLE? 100 grams is 14% of a 700 gram frame. Significant? And what about forks? THM makes some that are 250 grams. Your 275 fork is pretty close. Seems to me forks take the brunt on any ride. They are directly impacted when you hit holes, cracks, rocks. The frame is cushioned from direct impacts because the fork receives the direct force! The fork is in the most danger. Why isn't everyone screaming about all the unsafe, dangerous, deadly lightweight forks?


I have never written that Ax is not in the zone i spoke of, have i?
I suggest most of these super thin wall frames are in the risk zone.

But if we keep to THM fork. I think you have never seen a THM fork close, have you?

I can say, the THM forks are internally threaded and does not use any standard headset expander.
The fork steer tube is way thicker than any other fork made from carbon.
You should know that most carbon forks fail in the steerer tube.

I think you missed my point?
Why do i even mention this?
Because i got some words from a few dealers mentioning fail rates of light weight frames.
Also from speaking to quite a few cyclists who have had head tubes, chainstays etc cracked just from cycling (no crashed involved).
(I do rather not point out specific brands)
I would deem all frames under 800 grames as exceptionally light weight.
My UP is by all means not light weight, but it is standing abuse which simply would rattle and crack such as my Ax.
However, this might be unfair comparison as Vial EVO D is a road bike and UP is a gravel bike (which has been through all sorts of terrain and some adventures involving crashes.
Only blemish on this, is from chain jumping off the 34 tooth chainring riding mtb tracks.
Frame and paint is almost to pretty inspite of all i've been taking this bike through.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

MyM3Coupe wrote:
wheelsONfire wrote:My concerns for a custom built super light weight frame would be durability and safety.

This is why I'm a huge fan of Time road frames. They are adequately light, and they are also extremely durable.


There is a fair amount of Time frames with problems mentioned at different forums.
I have no idea about the later version though.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

kode54
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

wheelsONfire wrote:I can say, the THM forks are internally threaded and does not use any standard headset expander.
The fork steer tube is way thicker than any other fork made from carbon.
You should know that most carbon forks fail in the steerer tube.


the steerer tube thickness is massive compared to anything else i have including the Parlee's. almost twice as thick as the Enve 2.0 fork. amazing.
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Guru Praemio R Titanium + DA9150 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

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wheelsONfire
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Another thing to contemplate (nothing more, nothing less)!
Pinarello F8X, at 780 grams (+/-8%) for a 53 size frame. It has a rider weight limit of about 75-78Kg's.
Would this frame be considered a bad layup or an inferior design of light weight carbon frames, since it is specified to not handle a more heavy rider?
Or, is it just so that Pinarello are way more cautious?
Let's look at the percentage rate between a frame at 600 grams and a 780 gram frame.
That's about + 30% from Extralite to Pinarello.
So does this mean the untested Extralite frame is extremelly much better in layup compared to Pinarello?
Or how would you best look at this?
Why did Ax Lightness not set out to lower weight further from the already low 700 grams?
Is it because Ax Lightness can't build a frame as good as Extralites version?

Also bear in mind, a frame that is built in numbers compared to a hyper light custom design not even tested in each size, is this reasonable?
I don't say it's not, but somewhere there has to be a braking point to what is reason in terms of safety, durability, stiffness and ride feel.
600 grams, that is only 100 grams more than 1 of my gravel bike tires weight (Panaracer Gravel King SK 700*40).
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

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prendrefeu
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Location: Los Feliz, Los Angeles, California
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by prendrefeu

... all I want to see is this built up (with documented mass numbers), ridden, and reviewed.

The debate in the meanwhile is a bit moot. Technology has continually surprised humanity, in many ways, since the Industrial Revolution a century ago.
Soooo...

how about let's just weight and see. :D
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

thprice
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am

by thprice

prendrefeu wrote:... how about let's just weight and see. :D
:thumbup:

by Weenie


eric01
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:06 am

by eric01

I'm sure there was a very similar debate when frames first started hitting 1kg. Then 900g... then 800g... and now we are here at 600g.
AX Lightness Vial Evo, Carl Strong Titanium

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