Shimano CS-9000 cassette vs. CS-9100?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Dez33
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

by Dez33

eaglejackson wrote:I have an Ultegra 6800 11-28 cassette too. What puzzled me though is something I ran into recently. I have DA cassettes on my 2 Parlee's (one is otherwise DA, the other Ultegra). I bought a direct-drive trainer, the Tacx Neo, that comes without a cassette. I put the unused Ultegra on the trainer and could not get it to be silent. I got plenty of chain noise in the middle cogs. I re-mounted, re-torqued, micro-adjusted the Di2 derailleur, futzed for over an hour, maybe 2, getting frustrated, but could not get the noise to go again. I pulled a DA cassette off a spare wheel, and it was silent. The DA and Ultegra cassettes should be totally interchangable, totally the same spacing, but I couldn't get the Ultegra one to be silent. Perhaps someone more skilled than I at rear derailleur adjustment could get it to work quietly. I could not.

I am going to put the Ultegra on the spare wheel and see if it's quiet on the road.


Missed this earlier.

This is a known issue with Ultegra cassettes, especially 11-28. Basically Ultegra cassettes do not run quietly with Shimano chains. I had exactly the same issues as you when I moved away from Dura-Ace cassettes.

The solution is to use a KMC X11-SL chain. Runs completely quiet again.

basilic
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:05 am
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

by basilic

11.4 wrote:The 9000 cassettes may simply be more sensitive to someone who overtorques beyond stated spec.


If so then it's a poor design. These are consumables, that should withstand whatever a "normal" user does to them. I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40 Nm (do they even make the thingamajig that fits on a cassette?) Surprising from a company that has typically favored safe designs.

Chris_W
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Lausanne, Switzerland

by Chris_W

11.4 wrote:
uraqt wrote:I disagree that it's a small number and rare. Why did Shimano change the design.

viewtopic.php?t=118879

Look even VeloNews suggested an Ultegra cassette


Speaking with a Shimano factory mechanic, their failure rate on CS-9000 cassettes is under 0.2%. That's one in 500. Of those, carrier failure amounts to less than a third, so one in 1500. The carrier issue that's been the subject for this thread was involved less than 20% of the time (most carrier failures occurred when a chain derailed into the spokes and fell into the inside carrier). That makes it less than one in 7500 cassettes. Shimano has sold approximately 220,000 CS-9000 cassettes, which works out to about 30 cassettes that failed specifically due to collapse of this carrier. Assuming they see perhaps 30% of the actual failures, let's say that's 100 cassettes that have failed. That's still 0.05% failure rate. The rate of creaking is much higher, apparently over 1%, and is mostly blamed by Shimano engineers on improper torque when it's installed. That's why they modified the cassette.

These are data from one source. Do you have something better to show that supports the idea that this really happens a LOT?


I work in a bike shop in Switzerland. We've seen two Dura Ace 9000 cassettes broken in exactly the same way, due to a failed middle carrier, during the LAST MONTH! Both were about 6 months old and on bikes from completely different clients. The local Shimano importer replaced them both without question. It's a known problem whose rate is quite a bit higher than Shimano are admitting, IMO. I am very surprised that the design hasn't changed for the 9100 cassettes, especially given Shimano's normally conservative approach to everything.

kode54
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

basilic wrote:
11.4 wrote:The 9000 cassettes may simply be more sensitive to someone who overtorques beyond stated spec.


If so then it's a poor design. These are consumables, that should withstand whatever a "normal" user does to them. I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40 Nm (do they even make the thingamajig that fits on a cassette?) Surprising from a company that has typically favored safe designs.


i don't push high wattage so i can agree that it is a poor design. the first iteration was awful with the 4 rivets. i haven't seen any issues with the 8 rivet redesign but its just a matter of time. the rivets themselves seem like inferior metal....maybe that's the reason for failure?
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

kode54
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

Chris_W wrote:
11.4 wrote:
uraqt wrote:I disagree that it's a small number and rare. Why did Shimano change the design.

viewtopic.php?t=118879

Look even VeloNews suggested an Ultegra cassette


Speaking with a Shimano factory mechanic, their failure rate on CS-9000 cassettes is under 0.2%. That's one in 500. Of those, carrier failure amounts to less than a third, so one in 1500. The carrier issue that's been the subject for this thread was involved less than 20% of the time (most carrier failures occurred when a chain derailed into the spokes and fell into the inside carrier). That makes it less than one in 7500 cassettes. Shimano has sold approximately 220,000 CS-9000 cassettes, which works out to about 30 cassettes that failed specifically due to collapse of this carrier. Assuming they see perhaps 30% of the actual failures, let's say that's 100 cassettes that have failed. That's still 0.05% failure rate. The rate of creaking is much higher, apparently over 1%, and is mostly blamed by Shimano engineers on improper torque when it's installed. That's why they modified the cassette.

These are data from one source. Do you have something better to show that supports the idea that this really happens a LOT?


I work in a bike shop in Switzerland. We've seen two Dura Ace 9000 cassettes broken in exactly the same way, due to a failed middle carrier, during the LAST MONTH! Both were about 6 months old and on bikes from completely different clients. The local Shimano importer replaced them both without question. It's a known problem whose rate is quite a bit higher than Shimano are admitting, IMO. I am very surprised that the design hasn't changed for the 9100 cassettes, especially given Shimano's normally conservative approach to everything.


i don't see any fault in the design itself...just in the material used for the rivets. the 3 rivets out of 4 (in the cassette of mine that snapped) were sheared off completely. i didn't comb the streets looking for the rivets since i was just concerned about getting home...on a few cogs that were secured (the 17T).
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

11.4
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am

by 11.4

basilic wrote:
11.4 wrote:The 9000 cassettes may simply be more sensitive to someone who overtorques beyond stated spec.


If so then it's a poor design. These are consumables, that should withstand whatever a "normal" user does to them. I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40 Nm (do they even make the thingamajig that fits on a cassette?) Surprising from a company that has typically favored safe designs.


At $150-200 and with a lifetime with proper care of 12000-15000 km, I wouldn't call them consumables. But cool. So a 9000 cassette should be resistant to whatever kind of damage a heavy-handed home mechanic could inflict, or it should be recalled? Cool. Then every stem out there should be recalled too.

I do hear shops telling of seeing occasional broken 9000 cassettes coming into the shop. But what's interesting is that the few I've seen have or heard of all come from do-it-yourself wrenches, not from bikes maintained at professional bike shops. The issue here may not be a fragile cassette but one that has tolerances (like those on a stem) that need to be followed.

eaglejackson
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:26 am
Location: PNW

by eaglejackson

Dez33 wrote:
eaglejackson wrote:I have an Ultegra 6800 11-28 cassette too. What puzzled me though is something I ran into recently. I have DA cassettes on my 2 Parlee's (one is otherwise DA, the other Ultegra). I bought a direct-drive trainer, the Tacx Neo, that comes without a cassette. I put the unused Ultegra on the trainer and could not get it to be silent. I got plenty of chain noise in the middle cogs. I re-mounted, re-torqued, micro-adjusted the Di2 derailleur, futzed for over an hour, maybe 2, getting frustrated, but could not get the noise to go again. I pulled a DA cassette off a spare wheel, and it was silent. The DA and Ultegra cassettes should be totally interchangable, totally the same spacing, but I couldn't get the Ultegra one to be silent. Perhaps someone more skilled than I at rear derailleur adjustment could get it to work quietly. I could not.

I am going to put the Ultegra on the spare wheel and see if it's quiet on the road.


Missed this earlier.

This is a known issue with Ultegra cassettes, especially 11-28. Basically Ultegra cassettes do not run quietly with Shimano chains. I had exactly the same issues as you when I moved away from Dura-Ace cassettes.

The solution is to use a KMC X11-SL chain. Runs completely quiet again.

Ahh, thank you for the reply. Yes, I'm running an 11-28 cassette -- the quiet Dura-Ace one and the two noisy (new) Ultegra ones. I'll have to give the KMC chain a try.

I am going to try the Ultegra cassette on a wheel (C24) and see if it's noisy there. One would think so, and not just on the Edco freehub on the Neo, but worth a try.

I put the bike on a Kickr trainer yesterday at my local bike shop, which has an indoory Kickr cycling studio, and it was quiet. I should find out what cassette they are using. Unlikely it's a DA -- you wouldn't put ordinarily put a DA cassette on a trainer, but rather a much less expensive one.

Dez33
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

by Dez33

basilic wrote:
11.4 wrote:The 9000 cassettes may simply be more sensitive to someone who overtorques beyond stated spec.


If so then it's a poor design. These are consumables, that should withstand whatever a "normal" user does to them. I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 40 Nm (do they even make the thingamajig that fits on a cassette?) Surprising from a company that has typically favored safe designs.


You will need at least a 3/8 drive torque wrench then just get a 24mm single hex socket to fit over the Park tool.

Dez33
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

by Dez33

eaglejackson wrote:
Dez33 wrote:
eaglejackson wrote:I have an Ultegra 6800 11-28 cassette too. What puzzled me though is something I ran into recently. I have DA cassettes on my 2 Parlee's (one is otherwise DA, the other Ultegra). I bought a direct-drive trainer, the Tacx Neo, that comes without a cassette. I put the unused Ultegra on the trainer and could not get it to be silent. I got plenty of chain noise in the middle cogs. I re-mounted, re-torqued, micro-adjusted the Di2 derailleur, futzed for over an hour, maybe 2, getting frustrated, but could not get the noise to go again. I pulled a DA cassette off a spare wheel, and it was silent. The DA and Ultegra cassettes should be totally interchangable, totally the same spacing, but I couldn't get the Ultegra one to be silent. Perhaps someone more skilled than I at rear derailleur adjustment could get it to work quietly. I could not.

I am going to put the Ultegra on the spare wheel and see if it's quiet on the road.


Missed this earlier.

This is a known issue with Ultegra cassettes, especially 11-28. Basically Ultegra cassettes do not run quietly with Shimano chains. I had exactly the same issues as you when I moved away from Dura-Ace cassettes.

The solution is to use a KMC X11-SL chain. Runs completely quiet again.

Ahh, thank you for the reply. Yes, I'm running an 11-28 cassette -- the quiet Dura-Ace one and the two noisy (new) Ultegra ones. I'll have to give the KMC chain a try.

I am going to try the Ultegra cassette on a wheel (C24) and see if it's noisy there. One would think so, and not just on the Edco freehub on the Neo, but worth a try.

I put the bike on a Kickr trainer yesterday at my local bike shop, which has an indoory Kickr cycling studio, and it was quiet. I should find out what cassette they are using. Unlikely it's a DA -- you wouldn't put ordinarily put a DA cassette on a trainer, but rather a much less expensive one.


Probably a 105, they are quiet as well. It's just the Ultegra that's really noisy. Typically the KMC chain is better than a Shimano no matter what cassette as I'm pretty sure it's marginally thinner than the Shimano chains.

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

11.4- let me ask you this question. What does failed rivets have anything to do with lockring torque? The rivets don't touch the cassette body on a hub. So far I haven't see a failure at the splined part of the cassette.

Where is the common sense in all of this?

Dez33
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:02 am

by Dez33

pdlpsher1 wrote:11.4- let me ask you this question. What does failed rivets have anything to do with lockring torque? The rivets don't touch the cassette body on a hub. So far I haven't see a failure at the splined part of the cassette.

Where is the common sense in all of this?


Not a question directed to me but it's unlikely, no mechanic or engineer would accept Shimano's reasoning on that without testing it. The more logical explanation is design fault of the rivets and there number / position.

When you look at the torque range of tightening the cassette the lower figure is to make sure it doesn't come loose, the higher figure primarily is top stop you stripping out the threads on your freehub, not because of a worry of the cassette collapsing.
Last edited by Dez33 on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

ksy8828
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:42 am

by ksy8828

It just has change 30t

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cyclespeed
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

pdlpsher1 wrote:11.4- let me ask you this question. What does failed rivets have anything to do with lockring torque? The rivets don't touch the cassette body on a hub. So far I haven't see a failure at the splined part of the cassette.

Where is the common sense in all of this?



I would agree. I don't see what the tightening torque has to do with rivet failure.

If the lockring is too loose it would be immediately evident as the gears would be jangling around. If it's too tight then the only risk is stripping the thread.

Clearly something was wrong with the rivet design as Shimano changed it for a better one. (which may still not be perfect.)

mr4fox
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 2:01 pm

by mr4fox

To the OP - it's been a while since I've read anything about the new DA 9100 but I thought the only difference as far as cassettes are concerned is the introduction of the 30tooth cassette since the new derailleur has a larger capacity than previous models.

As for the on going debate...
I dobt believe what that Shimano mechanic is quoted as saying fir a second. I've read about more than 30 broken cassettes. It's a well documented problem. If you search enough forums. My cassette tool lives on the end of my 1/2" drive torque wrench as it's the only time I need a 1/2"drive while working on my bikes. I torque tye cassette to 25Nm on my extralite rear hub as recommended by extralite recommend Max 25Nm. I had a DA 9001 cassette fail on me (during a 20min test!!) last year. I dont believe over torquing is yye cause of failures. I don't believe home mechanics are tye cause of failures. Ive done many 10s if thousands of km's on Ultegra and campy cassettes without ever a problem. And the DA cassette failed within 1500km. It failed at tge same place that every other failure that I've read about occurred at. I don't believe these numerous failures are simply coincidence. It's a bad design.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

vanmatthew
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:20 am

by vanmatthew

I assume the 11-30 set has to be used on a long cage 6800 RD?

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