Who produces Canyon frames?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
hambini
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

mpulsiv wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:21 pm


You list manufacturers in that order due to BB tolerances? Would this be still relevant with threaded BB?
List based on general accuracy. You find there is a good correlation between BB tolerance and tolerance of the rest of the bike.

eg. Time and Look bikes have very accurate BB's, their frames are parallel, minimal misalignment.

Cannondale are the other end of the spectrum, quite poor BB's and headsets that have very poor bearing fits and aren't inline.

Hambini

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mpulsiv
Posts: 1189
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

hambini wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:12 pm
mpulsiv wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:21 pm


You list manufacturers in that order due to BB tolerances? Would this be still relevant with threaded BB?
List based on general accuracy. You find there is a good correlation between BB tolerance and tolerance of the rest of the bike.

eg. Time and Look bikes have very accurate BB's, their frames are parallel, minimal misalignment.

Cannondale are the other end of the spectrum, quite poor BB's and headsets that have very poor bearing fits and aren't inline.

Hambini
Thanks, that's good to know :beerchug:
I was never impressed with Cannondale's quality, neither have others based on numerous threads around here.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

by Weenie


flying
Posts: 1519
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

robertbb wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:42 am
:beerchug:
And yes, as an owner of an AL Ultimate SLX as well I can vouch the welds aren't the best out there. The bike itself rides very well though... but I am about to sell it and am looking to go to a 2019 Emonda AL rim brake.
Sorry did not mean to dis your current bike :D Main thing rides well right :thumbup:
Yes those Emonda ALR's look pretty good

I have been using a Fuji Roubaix frame now & am quite impressed with quality & ride.
The Elite Roubaix frame usually on sale somewhere for $599 quite nice 1090gr frame carbon 440 fork
http://www.fujibikes.com/usa/bikes/road ... lite-frame

For next frame I have been thinking I would stay with light aluminum but would like to have the threaded BB if possible
Maybe Bowman or Ridley Helium SLA if plain frame can be found

Stendhal
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am

by Stendhal

flying wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:48 am
robertbb wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:42 am
:beerchug:
And yes, as an owner of an AL Ultimate SLX as well I can vouch the welds aren't the best out there. The bike itself rides very well though... but I am about to sell it and am looking to go to a 2019 Emonda AL rim brake.
Sorry did not mean to dis your current bike :D Main thing rides well right :thumbup:
Yes those Emonda ALR's look pretty good

I have been using a Fuji Roubaix frame now & am quite impressed with quality & ride.
The Elite Roubaix frame usually on sale somewhere for $599 quite nice 1090gr frame carbon 440 fork
http://www.fujibikes.com/usa/bikes/road ... lite-frame

For next frame I have been thinking I would stay with light aluminum but would like to have the threaded BB if possible
Maybe Bowman or Ridley Helium SLA if plain frame can be found
The LOW// mki road has a threaded bottom bracket (English not Italian) and genius-smooth welds.
Pinarello Dogma F10 (6.49 kg)
LOW// mki road (7.25 kg)
Retired: Lapierre Pulsium FDJ, TIME Fluidity S, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2, R3, R5, Felt Z-25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

peroni
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:31 am
Location: Italy

by peroni

hambini wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:12 pm


List based on general accuracy. You find there is a good correlation between BB tolerance and tolerance of the rest of the bike.

eg. Time and Look bikes have very accurate BB's, their frames are parallel, minimal misalignment.

Cannondale are the other end of the spectrum, quite poor BB's and headsets that have very poor bearing fits and aren't inline.

Hambini
Do you have experience with Bianchi high range frames?

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kgt
Posts: 6922
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

We need more independent and knowleable contributions from forum members like hambini.
Our forum is full of scientism and marketing crap lately...

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fa63
Posts: 2291
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, US

by fa63

Very interesting; thanks for sharing your perspective on this. You mentioned Hongfu as being “best value for money”; would you personally feel safe riding one of their frames under demanding conditions? I am asking because I am thinking about building up a new gravel bike, and they have a frameset that checks all the boxes for me.

Thanks!
hambini wrote:Rather than do a post based on hear say. I thought I would chirp in based on measurements I have taken

For manufacturing tolerances, the grid looks like this

1. Time/Look (Best by a long way)

2. Hongfu/Dengfu etc (best value for money)

3. Specialized, Cervelo, Scott, BMC, Canyon. (most of these brands are okay but odd bad one)

4. Cannondale, Boardman (avoid)

Trek is probably 3.5, I haven't had enough to measure but they are generally rubbish.

The big unkown that most people don't even measure or look at is the accuracy of the frame. The distance beween the BB, drop outs, head tube, seat tube etc is not that critical, it can vary by about a mm here or there without too much trouble. Of more concern is the misalignment (parallel and angular) as it can cause erratic handling.

For a mere mortal, the difference between a Hongfu aero frame and a Cervelo S5 is not going to be very much but the price delta can be significant. However more of a PITA is if your frame creaks or your headset keeps coming loose.

When I started out with my YouTube channel, bike suppliers used to regularly send me letters from lawyers, I used to reply with a dossier full of measurements against serial numbers and a polite letter saying if they wanted to see me in court then be my guest - not one of them took it any further. As time has progressed some of these manufacturers use my bottom brackets to fix warranty claims and other's use me for aerodynamic "help".

If you want a decent frame. I would by a Look or a Time.

Hambini

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Roel W
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:39 am
Location: Belgium

by Roel W

I wonder how much sense it does make who manufactures a bike frame.
I worked in another business and we also produced a lot in the far east (outsourced manufacturing) but we had so many of our own poeple on site for quality control, engineers,.... that we could achieve exactly the quality level we wanted. Bike frame production shall not be that different.
Don't forget a lot of the 'technology' involved in bike frames is not introduced by the bike brands but by the carbon fibre manufacturers who offer them fibres and resins that are lighter, can produce stiffer frames, can make it possible to make frames with 'sharp' edges,....
CANYON Ultimate AL 2010
CANYON Ultimate CF SL 2014
CANYON Ultimate CF SL disc 2018
Instagram @roeleur

hambini
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

fa63 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:18 am
Very interesting; thanks for sharing your perspective on this. You mentioned Hongfu as being “best value for money”; would you personally feel safe riding one of their frames under demanding conditions? I am asking because I am thinking about building up a new gravel bike, and they have a frameset that checks all the boxes for me.

Thanks!
I would have no reservations riding it.

On the wider topic of bike manufacturing, I'd agree with Roel.

For many years, when China was "starting out". Manufacturing went east because of costs. Now that is coming back towards the west because their rates aren't so low any more and their quality control (whilst better) is still on the whole low. I went to a conference on manufacturing not so long ago and one of the speakers said the next big manufacturing country would be India. He said their workforce was highly skilled, numerate, spoke English well and government policy didn't require any joint ventures any more.

fundamentally, if they wanted to make accurate frames, they could. Look and Time have proved that. The difference is can they do it at a price and margin that makes it econimically viable. For every 1 person on WW who is moaning about their creaking bottom bracket, there are probably 40 weekend warriors who use their bike 3 times a year who probably do have a rubbish bottom bracket but don't ride their bike enough to notice.

Law of averages.

HTH Hambini

Clean39T
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 am

by Clean39T

fa63 wrote:Very interesting; thanks for sharing your perspective on this. You mentioned Hongfu as being “best value for money”; would you personally feel safe riding one of their frames under demanding conditions? I am asking because I am thinking about building up a new gravel bike, and they have a frameset that checks all the boxes for me.

Thanks!
hambini wrote:Rather than do a post based on hear say. I thought I would chirp in based on measurements I have taken

For manufacturing tolerances, the grid looks like this

1. Time/Look (Best by a long way)

2. Hongfu/Dengfu etc (best value for money)

3. Specialized, Cervelo, Scott, BMC, Canyon. (most of these brands are okay but odd bad one)

4. Cannondale, Boardman (avoid)

Trek is probably 3.5, I haven't had enough to measure but they are generally rubbish.

The big unkown that most people don't even measure or look at is the accuracy of the frame. The distance beween the BB, drop outs, head tube, seat tube etc is not that critical, it can vary by about a mm here or there without too much trouble. Of more concern is the misalignment (parallel and angular) as it can cause erratic handling.

For a mere mortal, the difference between a Hongfu aero frame and a Cervelo S5 is not going to be very much but the price delta can be significant. However more of a PITA is if your frame creaks or your headset keeps coming loose.

When I started out with my YouTube channel, bike suppliers used to regularly send me letters from lawyers, I used to reply with a dossier full of measurements against serial numbers and a polite letter saying if they wanted to see me in court then be my guest - not one of them took it any further. As time has progressed some of these manufacturers use my bottom brackets to fix warranty claims and other's use me for aerodynamic "help".

If you want a decent frame. I would by a Look or a Time.

Hambini
Which one ya looking at?

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euan
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:20 am

by euan

flying wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:53 am
Also what you say is true about welds & seeing what you have.

Funny too that given this topic is Canyon, I will also say Canyon Alum frames have the worst welds I have ever seen
Especially the seat cluster...looks like a 12 yr old metals class student did them :noidea:
Canyon don't file their welds.
"Step forward the climber and all those who worship at the altar of lightness" - R. Millar

anykarthik
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

Hambini,

This is totally off topic and I apologize for the digression. That said, I found your channel on Youtube and am hooked! Good stuff!

Now the question: On your article comparing different aero wheels, is the Bontrager Aeolus the new XXX one? Or the old D3 one? And secondly, have you had a chance to test Roval's CL/CLX 50/64 wheels? Given their abundance in the pro peleton (Bora and Quickstep), it would be awesome to see how they compare. And on the topic of missing wheels, the new HED Vanquish and the Cannondale Knot64 are also very interesting if you are able to test them

Now back to frames.

Cheers!

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fa63
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, US

by fa63

Hongfu FM279
Clean39T wrote: Which one ya looking at?

dastott
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:35 pm

by dastott

As someone who owns a Boardman and has owned 2 Cannondale SS Evo Hi-Mods, I think there is definitely some truth to Hambini's findings. The Boardman did develop a creaky BB but that was fixed by an LBS and I have ridden over 40,000 kms on it, otherwise trouble free. The SS Evo is a lovely bikes to ride but alignment issues with the chain stays are a bit annoying, and the carbon on one seems like a patchwork quilt. Now also have a Merida Reacto which is a much cheaper bike but the finish seems much better than the Cannondales. Wondering if Hambini has looked at Merida much at all?

by Weenie


robertbb
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

euan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:52 pm
flying wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:53 am
Also what you say is true about welds & seeing what you have.

Funny too that given this topic is Canyon, I will also say Canyon Alum frames have the worst welds I have ever seen
Especially the seat cluster...looks like a 12 yr old metals class student did them :noidea:
Canyon don't file their welds.
Is there any performance/strength benefit to *not* filing welds, or is it just cheaper to produce?
It's ALL about the bike.

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https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8&t=152263

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