Corima MCC 47 S+ versus Lightweight Meilenstein

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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cyclespeed
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by cyclespeed

sawyer wrote:Nice review.

Re spokes, have to admit for overall ride quality and aeroness (perceived or real) I prefer wheels with traditional bladed steel spokes (e.g. CX Rays) and so stick with Boras, Zipps etc in part for that reason. That alone would put me off LWs and these Corimas, and I never liked it with the CCUs I had, though the carbon spokes maybe do give a nice snappiness going uphill


I think not all carbon spokes are equal; clearly LW's are very different to Corimas.

The reason the Corimas are so stiff (top off all stiffness tests) is that the spokes are thick and very strong. LWs spokes are much finer and also quite thinly bladed. No doubt they can flex more than the Corimas which helps ride quality, and they are far more aero. The Mavic CCUs are similar.

I would say that the Corimas would suit a heavier more powerful rider than the Lightweights.


by Weenie


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kgt
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by kgt

Thanks for the review.
Thanks for this comparative test too!

http://www.lacheteurcycliste.com/media/ ... s_2013.pdf


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I for one, can't understand why they still keep to such narrow rims.
It must be only to hold weight down?

I have used mostly tubulars and they say the benefit with wider rims talking tubulars, is much less then with clinchers.
But still i prefer the wider rims. They ride different. Feels more stabile and that in turn inspire more confidence.
Why would Mavic revise CCU if there was nothing to this? Mavic took 2-3 years of testing to get it right, but still...
there is a reason they do this.
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cyclespeed
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by cyclespeed

wheelsONfire wrote:I for one, can't understand why they still keep to such narrow rims.
It must be only to hold weight down?

I have used mostly tubulars and they say the benefit with wider rims talking tubulars, is much less then with clinchers.
But still i prefer the wider rims. They ride different. Feels more stabile and that in turn inspire more confidence.
Why would Mavic revise CCU if there was nothing to this? Mavic took 2-3 years of testing to get it right, but still...
there is a reason they do this.


I don't really see why a wider rim would be more stable. It's all down to the tyre surely?

A wider rim allows a wider tyre to be fitted more easily, so there is that, but I'm happy on 23mm's for now (63kg).

If I went for a wheel with a very wide rim like the Zipp 303, I would almost be obliged to run 25mm tyres and I'd rather not.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Not really related to the specific wheels above but in relation to rim widths, since 2010 I spent a lot of time experimenting with different tire widths on both pre 2015 Boras (~20mm wide) and the newer Boras with the 24.2mm wide rims. Before the newer rims came out I used 22mm Veloflex Carbons then 23mm Carbons that replaced the 22mm. Both fit the rim very well and I preferred the 23mm over the 22mm for sure, but mostly because of my weight being close to 200lbs. But even at that, the wheels were a little less stable than I'd prefer (and I'm not talking about stability in winds here, that's different). So I thought I'd try some 25mm Arenbergs. They don't fit the older rims as well as a 23mm but the added volume did stabilize the ride considerably. Perhaps this was simply because of the added damping effect between the road and the rim. Whatever it was, the wider tires did inspire a bit more confidence, especially at my weight. Also, I'm taller as well, which means a larger frame. Big guys, larger frames, and unstable wheels are a very bad combo. A gusty crosswind in a descent can set off a speed wobble much easier than for the small frames and little guys. And wheels are definitely a factor here.
So fastforward to 2015 and I get to test the same 25mm tires on the slightly wider rim. Again, a noticeable improvement in stability (not wind related) over the pre-2015 rims. But as was mentioned above, I also feel compelled to use something larger than a 23mm tubular on these rims. They just fit better. As they should, since that's what they were designed for in the first place. But it also makes inherent sense to me that a rim with a greater width is going to be more stable than a narrower one. And it is. I'm going to try 24mm tires next as I think for me that is a sweet spot in tubular tire size.
Now as to the stability in crosswinds etc. I guess this does come down a lot to the aero properties of the rims. And yes, testing the pre-2015 boras with 25mm Arrebgergs against the newer rims with the same tires, I'd say there is also a noticeable improvement in handling the crosswinds although whether that's due to a slightly more aero profile or just simply because they are a bit wider I do not know.
I do know this, from actual experience. As much as some people salivate over Lightweights, I have not experienced any worse handling wheel in a gusty descent. It's scary. Caveat being I was on the generation before they lowered the profile to, what is it now, 47mm?, or 46? Anyway, they are so flat and so are the spokes that they catch wind like an America's Cup catamaran or whatever they're using these days. I have also read and I wish I could remember where for reference, that for all out speed into a 0 yaw wind, that the straight V profile is the fastest. And I kind of feel that maybe true. Trouble is, how often are you riding into a zero yaw wind.
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

cyclespeed wrote:
wheelsONfire wrote:I for one, can't understand why they still keep to such narrow rims.
It must be only to hold weight down?

I have used mostly tubulars and they say the benefit with wider rims talking tubulars, is much less then with clinchers.
But still i prefer the wider rims. They ride different. Feels more stabile and that in turn inspire more confidence.
Why would Mavic revise CCU if there was nothing to this? Mavic took 2-3 years of testing to get it right, but still...
there is a reason they do this.


I don't really see why a wider rim would be more stable. It's all down to the tyre surely?

A wider rim allows a wider tyre to be fitted more easily, so there is that, but I'm happy on 23mm's for now (63kg).

If I went for a wheel with a very wide rim like the Zipp 303, I would almost be obliged to run 25mm tyres and I'd rather not.


Eastons Aero 55 are probably the widest at 28mm over brake track. It's almost 30mm at the widest point.
These rims are optimized with 22-23mm tires which i have on them.

It's hard to explain why this is, but if you use a narrow rim like Mavic CCU (20.8mm externally) and then swap tires.
You will not have that wheelset feeling same or riding much different if you compare to a wheelset with wider rims.
The wider rim is still more stable even if you use less width tires on them.

You should really do some testing to notice this.
We adopt to things so i believe a long term testing is needed to really address what is the thing.

I have no experience with Corima. I just know now, that i like wider rims because the stability.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Agreed, think I said much the same thing in my post regarding Boras. Also, when you're talking clinchers versus tubulars then that's a whole different discussion because different width clincher rims will also affect the profile of the exact same tire. Unlike a tubular, which is constrained by its casing, and it's profile will be the same regardless of the rim width, but it is important to try to match the rim bed radius with the radius of the tubular you are using.
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Kongbop
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by Kongbop

Both Corima and LW are gorgeous, but I prefer first one.

It has really smooth hubs and perfect stiff.

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kgt
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by kgt

I can see what Calnago means when saying that a wider rim or a wider tire is more stable than a narrower one but this is just how they feel. It's not that there is an actual stability issue with a narrower rim or tire.
A heavy wheelset would also feel more stable than a lightweight one. That does not mean the heavier is better.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Stream 38 is lighter than CCU and still it feels more stabile and calmer.
But part from that, Stream 38 should not be compared to Lightweight, CCU and maybe Corimas carbon spoked wheels.
I guess those wheels will ride differently in ride feel. It seems there is risk reading what others prefer or think talking wheels.
Some have a preference towards another sort of ride feel.

For instance, i really like No tubes Avion Pro. But i also looked at Bike Ahead Biturbo.
I think Bike Ahead just as CCU aso, will ride much more stiff.
No tubes set out to create a rim that actually can deflect if you hit a pothole, rot or stone.
While the other stiffer wheels would not.
This is not to say Avion is flexing sideways!
It does not.

For stiffness more spokes will help. I wonder, when you have few spokes in the rear wheel, don't we lose power from chain to hub to spokes to rims?
It seems the hub, spokes and rims would fare better if we use more spokes?

If we rewind a bit to rims width and wider tires, there is a difference.
A wider rim and a 23mm or 25mm tire will feel different than a narrow rim with same tires.

Eastons Aero is very wide and feels very stabile even with Veloflex Carbon (23mm tires).
These set i have (Veloflex Carbon i have measured at 100-115psi and they are just below 23mm in width)
What happens is that i feel a confidence with these wheels which is clearly higher than with CCU.
CCU feels quick and nimble. But they also are harder to ride even with wider tires.
It would be really interesting to test 2015 CCU and the forthcoming wider CCU with same tires on same bike.
That would sort out what the wider rim is doing.

A nimble and quick sense/ feel, can also be true if the wheel is more nervous.
It's just same with a frame/ bike.
Lesser stability will generate a sense of higher speed. A super stabile bike will feel slower just as a motorcyce.
If you ride a motorcycle which is nervous, you will "feel" as if speed is truely high.

If you ride a motorcycle that is much more stabile, you will increase speed since the feel you had of the more unstable motorcycle
will make the more stabile feel slower. I think it's same with bikes.

It's a bit complicated to just recommend a wheelset because it comes back to what you really look for.
Sometimes a certain behaviour and feel looks cool and sounds attractive reading about it. But question is, what do you really like best when you actually ride.

If i ride my bike with No tubes Avion wheels and change tires from Schwalbe S-One 30mm to any of my wider tire there is an immediate thing i notice.
The 30mm S-One feels like they accelerate and set speed much better than the larger tires i have.

This is true for tarmac only. However, when i get into the gravel roads, the S-One is more nervous and that is noted as the bike have harder to keep track and grip.
So here a wider tire with lower pressure is actually giving me more speed.

If i would buy any super stiff wheel today or even look at one, i would seriously look at Bike Ahead Biturbo Road.
It is very expensive and also for disc brakes.
I would discard the narrow rim options du to my preference. The wider rims, rides better in ride feel and stability.
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coppercook62
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by coppercook62

thanks for the review good information

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cyclespeed
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by cyclespeed

So after a good 2 weeks on the Corimas I went back to the Lightweights for a 75km ride today. Same tyres, same pressures.

It's just a different feel. More smooth, supple, comfortable; hard to describe, but just nicer.

Out of the saddle and pedalling hard I can now notice the flex in the front wheel far more than I used to - that's the Corima's stiffness for you. Maybe in a sprint, the Corimas would just pip it as the better wheel. I guess LW are aware of this as they offer a 20 spoke front for bigger guys.

But for all round riding, I have to say I prefer the LWs. Not that the Corimas are not good wheels, just different.

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kgt
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by kgt

That's true, the normal 20 spoke Meilenstein was tested (in a Tour test I don't remember) much stiffer than the 16 spoke one. Actually the 16 spoke is less stiff than even the Gipfelsturm.

by Weenie


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