Campagnolo Super Record Rear Derailleur (pre-2015) top pivot

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
eajohnson
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

My super record rear derailleur has had some top pivot looseness from the time it was new, and it's been a source of continual frustration the last couple years. It shifts OK (nowhere near as good as my Athena bikes or anything with Shimano, but reliably enough) but produces a lot of noise as I ride (not when shifting). The pivot is essentially a little loose around the pivot bolt, it will move laterally maybe 1/3 to 1/2mm and there is overall looseness such that at the bottom of the derailleur, the play translates to movement of about 1/3 chain width.

It is impossible to tune the derailleur hanger properly, because the derailleur itself in its connection to the pivot bolt is loose, so a perfect derailleur hanger setup translates to the derailleur angling in towards the wheel visibly when the chainline pulls it inward (such as in the smallest cog) and the opposite if the chainline pulls the other way such as crossing over from the large chainring to the largest cog (no I wouldn't ride it in that gear). There is also toeing movement in and out slightly relative to the chainline (the play is in every axis at the pivot).

Is this by design, or do I have a defective derailleur that I've been living with? Can the top pivot and/or carbon portion at the top of the derailleur be serviced replaced? I've never seen them for sale nor seen any information on the Campagnolo site for servicing the top pivot bolt.

I'd just buy another one, but if it's like this by design I'd rather have a record derailleur with an aluminum top body that (presumably) would not have play like the Athena derailleurs don't have play. It's unfortunate that Athena is so much better than Super Record, in everything but weight. :(

by Weenie


eajohnson
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

Nobody here has a Super Record rear derailleur <=2014 that they could wiggle to corroborate whether play at the top pivot bolt is normal for this design or not?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Hmmm... 0.3-0.5 millmeter? That's not much. I just tired wiggling both a 2015 SR rear derailleur and a pre 2014 SR rear derailleur. I guess there is that much play maybe but only because I'm forcefully wiggling it. I certainly don't feel any abnormal looseness or slop in there (it still has to pivot after all). Don't know what to say. I have no shifting problems. And it's fine cross chained (either big/big or small/small) as well, although I don't make a habit of riding in those combinations.
Wonder if maybe your hanger itself, while perfectly aligned, is on the soft flexy side of things? That's the only thing I can think of. Could you source out a friend or a bike shop with one, to see for yourself if the play is particular to yours or normal?
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em3
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by em3

Calnago wrote:Hmmm... 0.3-0.5 millmeter? That's not much.


Indeed, I agree that 0.3-0.5 millimeters does not sound like much, but OP is describing the play as measured at the main pivot...I suspect that even 0.3 mm of play at the pivot could translate into several millimeters (or more) of lateral movement at the end of the lever when extended (i.e. the lower top of the tip of the jockey cage), which could effects shifting. Its too late to do the geometry but the deflection can be estimated by knowing distance from center of pivot to lower cage and then calculating the .... (insert geometry lesson here).

I am more curious how OP managed to measure said play at the pivot.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

And that's where I was checking "play" as well. At the pivot. I wouldn't call it "play" as much as just being able to move two separate yet connected parts. Certainly didn't translate to several millimeters of deflection at the pulleys in any case. Im thinking flexy soft hanger is the cause maybe but next to impossible to say for sure over the Internet.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

eajohnson
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

Thanks for the responses. Maybe the attached diagram will make this more clear. There is play, not flex. The derailleur hanger has nothing to do with it, at the lower pulley on the Super Record RD there is about 1/3 chain width loose play before there is resistance and flex of components (spring tension/cable, derailleur, hanger) comes into play. On an Athena RD there is zero perceptible play before there is resistance and it becomes flex. This play originates in overbore, you can see that the carbon derailleur body moves while the pivot itself is anchored to the hanger and does not move. The movement is visible. In addition, there is 1/3 to 1/2mm of _lateral_ play of the derailleur body on the pivot bolt. This play does have some spring resistance because the two parts are joined internally by the pivot spring, and does not seem to contribute to the described play at the pulley bottom. I mention it in case this is simply an issue of an improperly constructed two piece pivot bolt (i.e. in case this is abnormal and a symptom of a pivot bolt that was not fully tightened at the factory which depending on the exact shape of the pivot bolt and how that mates to the carbon derailleur body, could also result in the overbore looseness).

Image

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I don't know, I think it's such a small amount that you're talking about that you really need to find another bike with a SR derailleur on it and try it yourself to see if it's different. You seem to be adamant that it is not a soft hanger but I don't know how you could tell from how you're testing. The sloppy shifting would certainly at least indicate that as a possibility to me. You could always swap the derailleurs between that bike and your Athena bikes to troubleshoot it. But other than that there's nothing more I could possibly suggest over the Internet without actually seeing it and experiencing what you're talking about. Good luck.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

eajohnson
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by eajohnson

Calnago wrote:I don't know, I think it's such a small amount that you're talking about that you really need to find another bike with a SR derailleur on it and try it yourself to see if it's different. You seem to be adamant that it is not a soft hanger but I don't know how you could tell from how you're testing. The sloppy shifting would certainly at least indicate that as a possibility to me. You could always swap the derailleurs between that bike and your Athena bikes to troubleshoot it. But other than that there's nothing more I could possibly suggest over the Internet without actually seeing it and experiencing what you're talking about. Good luck.


Well obviously I don't have access to another SR derailleur otherwise I wouldn't be asking. :)

I'm adamant that it's not the hanger because it's not, you can directly observer the derailleur body wobbling around on the pivot bolt. For example, if you take a roll of toilet paper you can wobble it around on the toilet paper holder (not just rotate it around the axis, but wobble it off-axis). You can directly observe that the paper holder spindle (the equivalent of the pivot bolt) does not move, but the toilet paper roll can wobble around because the outer diameter of the holder spindle is a smaller diameter than the inner diameter of the toilet roll. It's that simple, it's direct observation the derailleur hanger has nothing to do with it. Either it's deliberate by design that the outer diameter of the pivot bolt is significantly smaller than the inner diameter of the derailleur body, or it's not deliberate. The one logical leap I'm making, is that if everyone says theirs do the same thing, then most likely it's deliberate. If others chime in and say no their derailleurs rotate around the pivot axis but do not wobble on the pivot bolt and/or also do not exhibit lateral play, then my derailleur may be a bad example. I do not want to replace a $450 derailleur with another one of the same type, if they are all like this.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

eajohnson wrote:My super record rear derailleur has had some top pivot looseness from the time it was new, and it's been a source of continual frustration the last couple years. :(


Umm, if it's not a stupid question, why, if you saw the problem from new, didn't you query it then with your retailer, drop it in to a Campag ProShop or email your local Service Centre?

There should be only the tiniest amount of play, if any at all. There is a very small tolerance allowed from new and the derailleur can, over a period of years, develop a slight movement just through wear and tear ... but from new, since all Campagnolo RDs use basically the same mechanism at the top, they should all have absolutely minimal movement.

If you still have a proof of purchase and you are less than three years from point of sale, provided that there is no reason to refuse warranty such as crash damage etc, it's possible that warranty could be granted and the top pivot assembly serviced with new o-rings fitted. This is a Service Centre Only job as it requires specific tooling for bolt replacement and for a jig to be used to check play and rotation of the RD in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the bolt post-replacement.

If you are in the UK, we are the only SC here equipped to carry out this work.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Can't get a better response than that, @eajohnson. I'd say Graeme is being very generous here.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

dmp
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by dmp

I have pre 2015 SR (2011) on my bike and have not had any problem like this- the shifts are solid and quiet. Sounds like a possible defect to me. My son's Colnago has a 2013 SR rear on it and I don't recall anything like this when I rode his either.

eajohnson
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

FWIW just to close out this thread, I bought a new Super Record derailleur and all is well, it's quiet and while there's a tiny bit of play the new derailleur has essentially solved the issue.

edu74
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:48 pm

by edu74

eajohnson wrote:FWIW just to close out this thread, I bought a new Super Record derailleur and all is well, it's quiet and while there's a tiny bit of play the new derailleur has essentially solved the issue.


Hi ...

I have a SR rear Derailleur 2013 and this have some play in main pivot , my old 2011 SR with aluminum suport dont have this play !!!

This play not affect change but I need disemble this main pivot for see if have some problem , someone disemble this and tell me how to make ???

Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

I have a 2014 Chorus Derailleur and recently found there is play with mine as well. I also discovered that the pivot bolt is aluminum, as the splines have stripped out during dis-assembly. I always thought they were either steel or titanium for the Super Record. Unpleasant surprise.

As for the play; in this day if cnc, there is really no excuse for such a wide tolerance that results in too much play. Having a close tolerance of a few ten thousanths would help shifting and repeatability. Not sure if the rocking mine exhibits is due to wear or was loose when new. I'll check for wear on the anodized surface when I get a new bolt to replace it with.

by Weenie


eajohnson
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

eajohnson wrote:FWIW just to close out this thread, I bought a new Super Record derailleur and all is well, it's quiet and while there's a tiny bit of play the new derailleur has essentially solved the issue.


Well a bit shy of one year and less than 11000kms later on that new derailleur, the top pivot has worn and exhibits play the same way that the old one did, the derailleur has become noisy. Disappointing to have to buy a new rear derailleur every year just due to wear and tear, such an expensive item should be more durable.

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