Colnago C60 - Campagnolo bottom bracket

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Exactly, if you're running a Super Record crankset, there's no way I'd substitute Campy's CULT bearings for anything else. What some may argue is that the Ceramic Speed option does away with what I've described as the "protective layer" (Threadfit cups) in my other thread. With the Threadfit cups, as installed when you buy the frame, you are still going to have to press in the appropriate Campy cups (86.5 x41), and THEN you install the crank. I suppose a bad install may be prone to creaking. But the Colnago Threadfit cups are finely machined, the bore is not all over the place (it is good), and the Campy cups themselves, being alloy and also finely machined to tight tolerances get pressed into those cups. It's a good fit, compared to many others. It sounds funny, cups being pressed into cups, but it works and saves your frame from the rigors of pressfit.

But with the Ceramic Speed option, you do away with the "protective layer" (Threadfit cups), and that's it, you're done. The cranks get installed directly without the need to press in some cups from Campy, or whomever's crank you're using. The only thing I don't really like about it is that the Threadfit threads themselves are very fine, and I hate removing and installing anything repeatedly when threads are involved. That's probably a moot point however, since you will rarely be replacing them. But with the Threadfit cups, you do not remove them when replacing worn Campy cups. You just punch the worn ones out, and press new ones in. Only in the event that the Threadfit cups themselves became excessivley worn would you have to replace them. That should be an extremely infrequent occurence., but it's a simple and inexpensive process if you need to at some point.

Where I think we may see something much more exciting relating to Ceramic Speed and Campy has not been released yet. But it's coming. I don't know the details but I'm curious to see if my guess is correct.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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micky
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by micky

I much prefer to remove something with threads than something where the bike manufacter ask me to use some glue for stick the BB bearings.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, I hear you @micki. And removing them should be so infrequent that it’s not going to be a problem either way. The tolerances are just so good on both Colnago’s Threadfit cups and on Campy’s cups that a retaining compound is not even required. While Campy started recommending it some time ago, that was only in response to the many carbon shells that were somewhat borderline “round”. Colnago actually recommends a “dry” install of the cups and I’m pretty sure that’d be fine too, especially with the anodization on both surfaces. I did not use retaining compound on my C60 for example. I did use a little Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste (so not “dry”) just to be on the safe side to protect against possible seizing. I guess for me it would boil down to keeping everything Campagnolo, which I know fits and works perfectly without issue, or more importantly, switching from the seemingly indestructible CULT bearings on SR to Ceramic Speed’s bearings. Given my experience with the CULT bearings, that might be the tougher choice. The other thing for me is that I’m all tooled up for all things pressfit now, and have done enough of them without any issues afterwards so that at this point I guess I’m fine either way. But I agree, threads are good and I think Colnago’s solution to the dual challenge of accepting the current state of BB technology and wanting to build a frame that will last is really superb. And if Ceramic Speed worked with Campy on this, I’m going to have to assume the quality is there. If my C60 had the slightest problematic creak I’d be all over it. But it’s been silent since day one. So, if it ain’t broke...
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ghisallo2003
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by ghisallo2003

I do find that I need to replace UT bearing cups (BSA fortunately) every 3 years or so. I do get a level of play and resulting noise that I prefer to get rid of with new cups.

I am not intending to go C64 but I think the Ceramicspeed solution is a two-edged sword; yes you get a single threaded and elegantly singularly machined solution, like BSA in fact, but with a finer pitch and will therefore have a lower risk of creak. On the other hand you would need to remove a theoretically fit and forget component every few years, with the risk that thread damage occurs to a very expensive frame.

On balance, I think that the pre-existing solution with threaded and press-fit solution is the best solution.

Evenflow
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by Evenflow

Hi @Calnago, My apologies if I missed the answer. I am building a C64 disc with Campy SR disc group and Campy BB. Is the suggested Loctite used for both the Colnago threaded cups and on the Campy cups as you press them in ?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Evenflow: I wouldn’t even use Loctite 609 and primer on the C64. The threadfit cups that are preinstalled in the frame when you get it are nice and round with really good tolerances as are the alloy Campy BB cups. Colnago actually recommends a “dry” install, meaning you just press the cups directly into the Threadfit cups and rely on the anodization to prevent any oxidation/corrosion, etc. I used some Morgan Blue Aqua Proof Paste between the Campy cups and the Colnago Threadfit cups just because that’s what I’ve been doing lately and it has been fine. Just don’t use grease. And so far, my C60 has been completely trouble free. The key is to make sure the cups get pressed in square and aligned to each other. Once in, grease up the insides of the cups and install the ultratorque crank.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Evenflow
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by Evenflow

@Calnago, thanks for the quick reply. So, no loctite on the Colnago threadfit cup threads into the B.B. shell huh ? Just dry threads and torque to spec ? My threadfit cups came uninstalled in my accessory/ owners manual box so I purchased the special threadfit socket and I already have the Campy press tool so I should be set.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Interesting, I’ve never heard of the Threadfit cups coming uninstalled before. And if they did, you’d think they could have at least included the tool to install them with. But no big deal, on those threads I just used Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste. But if I didn’t have that I’d just use some antiseize compound and torque them to spec. Consider those threads just like a Threaded BB shell.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

KotP
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by KotP

Evenflow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:26 am
My threadfit cups came uninstalled in my accessory/ owners manual box so I purchased the special threadfit socket.....
Correct me if I’m wrong Evenflow, but you're the person that purchased the C64 disc from ciclimattio (immaterial who the seller was, the point is it was sight unseen) without the rear brake hose entry hole drilled and the thread fit cups weren’t installed?
Calnago wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:25 am
on those threads I just used Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste. But if I didn’t have that I’d just use some antiseize compound and torque them to spec. Consider those threads just like a Threaded BB shell.
Don’t the threadfit cups come from the factory installed with blue Loctite, or should I say when the threadfit cups are installed in the factory? I think that’s what he’s asking.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

They have something on the threads, but I don’t think it’s Lotctite. And certainly wasn’t blue. In fact I thought it was Aquaproof Paste. Basically you want to have something there, same as in a threaded BB, to prevent corrosion, galling and seizing up, especially since it’s something that would rarely need removal. Just like if you threaded in some cups into a BSA, or Italian, threaded shell. I like using Aquaproof Paste since it prevents the corrosion, is very tenacious and stays put, and so much cleaner than something like a copper based antiseize compound. You could use Threadlocker instead but I really don’t think it’s needed as long as you torque it to spec, and makes it so much more difficult to remove when you need to.
And yes, he was asking about both the Threadfit cups and the Campy cups (which get pressed into the Threadfit cups). If Loctite were to be used, the threads would get a Threadlocker (I use 222 (purple) which would be fine. Then use a retaining compound for the pressfit applications (very different than Threadlocker). But I used neither Threadlocker or a retaining compound and the Aquaproof Paste seems to work very well.
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Evenflow
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by Evenflow

Sorry guys I can’t seem to get quote feature to work well from my phone so here you go :

Yes that is me however the rear brake hose “ hole was not drilled “ is not accurate. It turned out that it is an electronic group set specific frame just like the pictures I posted of the white C64 from the Colnago booth. With an electronic group you only need the entry point on the top of the down tube. One grommet with 2 holes for the rear brake hose and the EPS wire. Yes, the thread fit cups were not installed they came in the sealed Colnago accessory box protected in a plastic bag wrapped in foam.

My Colnago acc box included :

1 - owners manual
1 - warranty booklet
2 - thread fit cups in a sealed bag individually wrapped in thin foam
1 - steer tube expander
1 - steer tube cap
4 - bottle cage bolts
1 - plastic head tube lug grommet
1 - rubber head tube lug grommet
2 - down tube grommets
1 - insert for the rear der cable port on the seat stay
1 - 2ft piece of cable guide
1 - Jagwire cable guide that fits the previously mentioned insert
1 - sealed bag w/ chain drop guide, all disc brake bolts and washers
2 - headset caps/spacers

So, although it is an electronic specific frame it appear they provided a mix of mech group and elect group accessories.



@Calnago - O.k cool re: using anti seize that is what my instincts were screaming in my head ;) My thread fit cups appeared clean, no visible anything on the threads from the factory.

KotP
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by KotP

Calnago wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:11 am
They have something on the threads, but I don’t think it’s Lotctite. And certainly wasn’t blue....
You're most probably right. Trying to recall it better, it was a made in Taiwan Colnago I saw with the blue Loctite, factory installed, after the threadfit cups were removed. The mechanic doing so had to break the thread locker. I assumed since the threadfit cups are for all intents and purposes the same I thought they'd be installed the same way.

Evidently not the C60 and C64 in Italy.
Evenflow wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:44 am

Yes that is me however the rear brake hose “ hole was not drilled “ is not accurate. It turned out that it is an electronic group set specific frame.....
Thanks for the correction. I might have more to say on the "Electronic specific frame" issue, but I'll do so in the appropriate topic.

As for the cups not being installed, that's some BS. I'd contact ciclimattio and let them know that on top of the issue with the brake hose routing, the cups weren't installed and you had to spend X on buying a tool in order to do so. Having to buy a proprietary tool to install something that should have been done at the factory is cause for complaint.

Evenflow
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by Evenflow

KotP wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:21 am
Calnago wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:11 am
They have something on the threads, but I don’t think it’s Lotctite. And certainly wasn’t blue....
You're most probably right. Trying to recall it better, it was a made in Taiwan Colnago I saw with the blue Loctite, factory installed, after the threadfit cups were removed. The mechanic doing so had to break the thread locker. I assumed since the threadfit cups are for all intents and purposes the same I thought they'd be installed the same way.

Evidently not the C60 and C64 in Italy.
Evenflow wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:44 am

Yes that is me however the rear brake hose “ hole was not drilled “ is not accurate. It turned out that it is an electronic group set specific frame.....
Thanks for the correction. I might have more to say on the "Electronic specific frame" issue, but I'll do so in the appropriate topic.

As for the cups not being installed, that's some BS. I'd contact ciclimattio and let them know that on top of the issue with the brake hose routing, the cups weren't installed and you had to spend X on buying a tool in order to do so. Having to buy a proprietary tool to install something that should have been done at the factory is cause for complaint.
There is nothing to say about the frame and again I already showed you the photos of the same frame from the Colnago booth. They made a simple error and already gave me a discount for the misunderstanding and I in turn used it as an excuse to purchase a SR electronic group set. As for the cups I really do not understand why you feel that it is some sort of tragic issue ? I started working in bike shops at 13 to cover my parts tab and to this day I build all of my own bikes, lace my own wheels etc and own just about every tool imaginable to do so. I have nearly a dozen bikes in my garage ranging from BMX to MTB to road and not a single one of those ever came with a pre installed bottom bracket so I don’t find it odd that the cups were included in my acc box. I would have purchased the tool anyway just to double check that the cups were torqued properly during assembly.

For anyone else that is now curious this is the version of the disc frame that I have without the head tube lug grommet for the rear brake hose, you can see that the brake hose and electronic wire enter the down tube through the grommet on top of the down tube on this version :
EC61F386-702B-4DCD-A9FD-0FA1A26A4B1F.jpeg

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Calnago
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by Calnago

That makes sense how they’ve done it there for sure. And I agree, it’s good to have the Threadfit tool regardless going forward and sounds like you even invested in the actual Campy BB press, which is an excellent investment. I finally got one myself, even though I have a multitude of pressfit tools. But none of them hold a candle to the Campy press for pressing in their cups.
One question about your BB... before you installed the Threadfit cups, did it look like the shell edges had been properly faced, free of paint etc? That’s really the only reason I removed mine during the build.... to ensure that the shell was properly prepped before the Threadfit cups went in, and like you, to ensure they were properly torqued. And it was.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


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KotP
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by KotP

Evenflow wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:57 pm
As for the cups I really do not understand why you feel that it is some sort of tragic issue ?
Not tragic, just an inconvenience and an additional expense. And by no means did I intend to criticise you or your bike, I’m sorry if it came off that way.

It’s good that you do all your own wrenching on your bikes and you have the tools to do so, a lot of people can’t or won’t.

But it seems to have been resolved well for you and quickly, enjoy your bike and nice new groupset.

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