Colnago C60 - Campagnolo bottom bracket

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wedgie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:41 pm

by wedgie

I'm building a new C60 with Campagnolo Chorus. Does anyone have any experience or advice regarding the best way to install the ultra torque cups? Should I use loctite as suggested on the campagnolo website, or use grease, or just install dry? I understand loctite is recommended to prevent creaking on carbon frames but the C60 has precision engineered aluminium cups so maybe loctite isn't necessary.
Also, can I use a headset press on the outer edges of the cups or do I need to use a campagnolo tool inside the cups?
I'd appreciate any advice!

ColnagoEPQ
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:32 pm

by ColnagoEPQ

I used Loctite as Campagnolo recommends. I also used the Campagnolo tool for the install; it is smaller than a headset press and fits the cups perfectly (as expected). The result is a noise free bottom bracket.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, and while I have not yet built up a C60 I have looked at their Threadfit design very closely in person to see how it all works and differs from others. I have fixed a number of creaky Pressfit bottom brackets. Use Loctite 609, and I always use the primer as well, especially with carbon shells. The Threadift system in the C60's is alloy and in my opinion the best implementation to date of an inherently bad idea for bicycle bottom brackets. Good news is that done right it should be problem free. It is critical that the cups be perfectly aligned with each other. This is where a proper press and bearing/cup bushings come into play. As long as the press and bushings you use ensure that the cups are square and aligned with each other you should be good. I would use whatever bushings are available that press "inside" the cups (where the bearings will seat) versus just a big flat surface pressing against the outer edges. You may get lucky, but I'd get the proper bushings or whatever they call them as a minimum. It's a nice frame. Do it right the first time.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

I've done about half-a-dozen of these now - my recommendation is exactly as Calnago says - do it right, do it once and don't mess about on such a high quality, high cost build by trying to scrimp and save on using a proper press for the BB - the correct Campag tool fits like a glove and drives the cups dead straight - anything that fits otherwise & you are risking making a Horlicks of both the BB liner and the cups.

For info - if the BB shell liner is anodised alloy or carbon, you need the activator on the Loctite. 603, 609 or 641 can be used, with 7649 activator. The activator is required because to cure properly the Loctite needs available metallic ions that are made unavailable by the anodising and / or the fact that the BB shell you are pressing into is not metallic.

Don't use grease, that's about the worst thing you can do. Even fitting dry is better than that!

Think of it this way - why are you using grease? Is surface corrosion on the cups or liner an issue? No, not really. Is galvanic corrosion an issue? No, fairly unlikely with two anodised surfaces - it's a low probability, anyway. So, you are using grease not to control corrosion but to lubricate inter-component movement as that will deaden noise - well, yes, it will, but it'll also facilitate more movement. So then you'll be tempted to push the cups out and re-grease, as the preventive function won't last forever - at which point you distort the BB shell ever so slightly (because it's an interference fit), so more movement is possible ... do that on a serial basis and pretty soon you have a set of cups that are really not in the frame very tight at all and you'll end up *having* to Loctite them anyway.

I saw a Stork this time last year, scrapped because some genius had decided that the UT cups should be pressed into the BB shell with grease. The only way we could (very temporarily) fix the guy's problem (after I'd extracted the cups with my fingers) was to use plumbers tape ... the fit had got so poor I was not at all sure the Loctite would cross the gaps and cure properly. I still shudder when I think about that one ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

wedgie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:41 pm

by wedgie

Thanks ColnagoEPQ, Calnago, Graeme. Your suggestions are unanimous.
I have had so much conflicting advice previously - I emailed Colnago directly who suggested the cups should be fitted dry, I phoned Windwave who are the uk distributors and was recommended to use waterproof grease, yet the Campagnolo website suggests loctite!
I'll definitely use the loctite method, have to buy the campag tool first!

Valbrona
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Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

by Valbrona

I've not seen a C60, but does the BB shell contain an aluminium liner? And presumably it is fixed inside and cannot be moved?

Thanks.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Valbrona, the Threadfit cups are removable and replaceable should you ever need to. That's a big deal in my books. They thread into what I presume is an aluminum (or some alloy) sleeve, which is a permanent part of the bottom bracket. It's basically acknowledging that pressfit BB's, for better or worse, are part of the industry now so they need to provide for it, but in a way that is not going to destroy a frame over time by having the direct contact between the pressfit cups or adaptors directly against your carbon frame shell. I really do think it's a good way of doing it, but still basically adds another layer to the whole pressfit mess. In this case, however, I'd call it a "protective layer", and that's a good thing. Hope that made sense.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

zirinpio97
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Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:09 pm

by zirinpio97

Hi Calnago I have a C60 and I'm ready to assemble a Clavicula M3 with Thm Pressfit BB ; so what is the best : grease , loctite , nothing ?Now I use a Hope pressfit BB assembled with little grease and after 4000 km no creaky sound.Cheers.

laspariahs
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:31 am

by laspariahs

I installed my C60 campagnolo BB cups just as Graeme recommends, loctite and the Campagnolo tool, works perfectly.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I will add that if a pressfit installation is going to work ok without using Loctite 609 and activator, then the Threadfit system has as good a chance as any to work properly, because of it's precision machined surfaces that are nice and round. But I'd still go with using a retaining compound for good measure.

@zirinpio97: I'm not familiar with your crank, other than knowing what it is etc., but if it's got a 30mm spindle then it's not ideal for this BB simply because you have to use special smaller bearings in order for it to fit. I'd contact THM to see what they offer, but the installation advice you've seen in this thread applies equally. I just don't recommend putting a 30mm spindle in BB's that aren't really designed for it in the first place. But generally speaking, keep in mind that for any pressift application you want to prevent movement between the shell of the frame and the cup or bearing outer surface. Grease facilitates movement, and may mask a problem for a while, but not fix it, and in fact may make it worse in the long run due to any wear that occurs from the repeated movement and rubbing between the surfaces.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ghisallo2003
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

Given that the C60 is designed to accept a threaded frame-specific cup to act as the 'base' for press-fit cup installation, would it not be possible to design an Ultra-torque specific threaded cup for the C60?

This would be equivalent to the new CK standard for threading into a bigger bottom bracket.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, it's possible. And then we're basically back to BSA threaded except for a larger diameter shell. There's others experimenting with this as well. Due to manufacturing costs and production issues of large manufacturers however, I doubt anyone is going to abandon pressfit now, unfortunately. At least not the big manufacturers. Too bad. I believe Colnago's solution however, is really the best attempt out there right now at making the best of a bad (pressfit) situation.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ghisallo2003
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by ghisallo2003

I am glad guys are looking at it, and hoping that Colnago themselves would come up with a direct solution.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The direct solution was what we had with BSA and threaded bottom brackets. Then everything went to hell in a handbasket. Nothing wrong with threading the larger shells in my mind, but I just don't think the big guys are going to jump on board. It's "hard" and it would "cost more" to produce. Wha Wha Wha....
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ghisallo2003
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

I am not expecting the larger volume manufacturers to jump on board, but effectively Colnago has a) a frame that is ready to accept a threaded solution, b) a historical association (don't all jump in - I have worded this carefully) with Campagnolo.

One would hope that this would be a compelling argument for some relatively simple tooling to build an no-compromise Campag solution.

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