Wert Straight Shooter stem

[goodboyr]

Ok. Put your bets down. We need this thread to go to 50 pages! Let's go!

[KWalker]

You forgot to answer the most important questions:

What problem does this stem solve?

What are the magnitude(s) of said problems?

What is the marginal cost/benefit point to price the entire operation?

In theory I liked the original aesthetic, concept, and length/angles. After seeing the price, however, and the "value add" I remain unconvinced that stem weight and stem deflection are limiters for modern stems that would require such a price.

Do you actually have a link to said feedback? I find very little about your operations and testing by doing a Google search.

[prendrefeu]

And then sadly, the personal attacks started again. Darn. I guess that's the way it is. Disappointing.

It's not hard to find that whenever someone asks you a simple question of "hey, what's your background?" you claim it's a personal attack. A simple search under your username's posts and their corresponding discussions continually points to you hiding behind a "personal attack! personal attack!" plea whenever anyone starts to ask about you.

While questions from all sides are valid (yours included), the fact that you continually avoid representing who YOU are in the discussion makes any sane, reasonable and thoughtful person question the validity of your arguments, question the (yet unknown) reasons WHY you are so pervasive in your inquiries, and question what intentions you have with the discussion.

In what part of the world - in person or through digital communication - is a person who expects to remain "anonymous" also expecting others to take them seriously?

Let's go over it.
1. You haven't been on the site too long. That's fine, no one is blaming you and new people join in all the time, but you also should understand that it does help when you've been around for a while and people get to know you. That is the nature of any community, of any size, in any format, with any species of conscious being on this planet. But... you're refusing for people to actually know you, especially when people ask...

2. Despite not being around for a while, when asked a simple question you have refused to state your background. Yet you still expect to be taken seriously.

3. You clearly state that you want to remain "anonymous" yet somehow also want to gain the merit of authority on a subject which no one has any basis to give you because no one knows anything about you.

4. You're on a forum which is catered to light weight builds. Yet you state, clearly, "No I don't believe 20g is worth the $100 price penalty but others who want the lightest stem may want it" - and guess what, highdraw? People do. You're on a site where people want that, even if a product is produced one-at-a-frickin-time by hand and spit-polished by a former-pro in a Warsaw apartment who uses the threads of a silkworm that is only fed the purest saffron to polish it. Yet you have a problem with that? I've stated this before and I'll state it again: I really think you don't understand the nature of this forum.


...but wait, sorry... you're going to think this is a personal attack again, huh?

[Rick]

Whenever reading anything on the nutterwebs these days it is prudent to have at least read this site once.
http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

[prendrefeu]

Do you actually have a link to said feedback? I find very little about your operations and testing by doing a Google search.

Hey Karsten, can you provide a link to your various sources of news and 'insider info' over in the "'PRO' cycling discussion" thread? Occasionally you reference that someone on some team or staff told you such-and-such, but a quick Google search did not reveal who that person is or what they said.

Just pointing out that, despite everything, people (myself included), generally trust your "news" sources, and:
1. Mythical's work has been in the industry for quite sometime.
2. Not everything developed, in any industry, prior to going public, is "published" and spread across social media (which you are quite tuned in on, no?)
3. Not everything is on the internet. Not even in 2015... and I'm quite thankful for that. You should be too.

[liketoride]

Highdraw that approach I talked about still needs work, although i can tell that you did your best . When telling me that i need to stay on topic when i asked, your professional opinion is that this stem is unsafe based on your background your response was that you want keep your identity in tacked got me thinking, how that was off topic? Also though what are the statistical chances of this guy is working a job that is one of one in the profession? Then i was told how a blog is used and i was thinking this guy didn't tell us anything yet, again, so why should i listen to his opinion? prendrefeu is a much better writer than i am but he is reading your post the same way I did, why is he on WW? I am one of those people that thinks 20 grams is worth $100 but cannot take you serious without some kind of credential that support your claims.

[Calnago]

In another thread @HighMighty is also suggesting that Campagnolo may want to check their metallurgy on some of their springs. I wanted to ask him what his credentials are in metallurgy that qualified him to make such statements but knew that question would be falling on deaf ears. He really can't help himself. I've said it before. I'm saying it again. He really can't help himself. And this guy is not new to the forum as @prendrefu is assuming. He's been banned before. Then he came back. Same thing all over again. Then he "voluntarily" removes himself about a month and a half ago after causing similar havoc in several threads simultaneously. And now, he's back. Mods? what say you? What does it take?

[glepore]

I gotta say that I enjoy the dialog created, but am somewhat mystified by the refusal to at least provide background, given that highdraw has hinted that he has professional experience in either engineering or materials science. I'm not saying he needs to identify himself, but its not cool to intimate that you have experience without identifying what that is. OTOH, I missed the earlier exchange that led to the ban, so I don't get why he gets under some folks skin so quickly.

As far as the stem goes, its intriguing and I appreciate the passion, but crowdfunding for me is a very grey area.

[highdraw]

I'll chime in again, because getting personal will go nowhere.

Basically, Wert Cycling started as a hobby that got out of hand and all costs are paid out of our pockets. We run Wert Cycling in our spare time, prioritizing a regular day job and family obligations, and find ourselves understaffed and underfunded for the magnitude of our enterprise. Nevertheless, we managed to develop this stem together with amazing development partners, such as Schmolke Carbon. In the meantime, we designed an entire component line that makes this stem look like only a footnote.

We really like the Thomson Elite X4, that it's CNC-machined and its stiffness, only we just wanted something lighter, prettier and still durable. Our inspiration for deciding to make CNC-machined parts comes from Ringlé, Machine Tech, Cook Bros, Kooka and other 90s mountainbike brands.

The Straight Shooter stem was designed specifically to excel in hard out-of-the-saddle efforts, such as peloton sprints, where torsional stiffness is desirable, and to withstand use with 700mm riser bars for e.g. enduro mountainbiking. This eliminates the need for separate road and MTB versions. The Wert Straight Shooter stem is ready to go full series production. It works, we want to make 14 sizes, and for a lack of resources we resolve to Wert Incrowdfunding.

How is the Wert Straight Shooter stem so stiff? Its barrel diameter is larger. Ø38mm to be exact. It’s a no-brainer that, all things being equal, a larger diameter tube means greater stiffness, but it also adds weight. 38% larger diameter is double the stiffness. Typically, lightweight stem barrels are about Ø33-34mm.

How is the Wert Straight Shooter stem so light? Same answer: Its barrel diameter is larger. The tradeoff for this weight gain is that less material is needed to bridge the perpendicular handlebar and steerer clamp interfaces and accompanying bolt holes, where stems have most of their mass and many stems have excessive bulk. Most of the actual weight savings on a Straight Shooter stem actually come from using proprietary bolts and clamps.

Together with a leading bolt manufacturer, Wert Cycling developed proprietary hot-forged 6Al/4V titanium hexalobular Torx T25 spherical head socket bolts with an M5x0.5mm fine thread that are 70% stronger than typical titanium bolts with rolled threads. Our bolts uses fine instead of course thread due mechanical advantages such as a larger root diameter and better resistance against axial forces. On our 130mm stem, the barrel counts for 84% of the total weight but we also didn't skimp on bolts and clamps! I can’t think of any stem where this number is higher. It's total weight roughly dissects like this:

Main barrel — 71 grams
Clamps (2x) — 7 grams
Bolts (6x) — 7 grams
Total — 85 grams

How is the Wert Straight Shooter stem so strong? The inside profile of a Straight Shooter stem barrel resembles a butted tube, only more contoured. The centre of the barrel is stressed less than the areas near the clamps, so naturally we redistributed material to where it's needed. We designed its transition between surfaces with obtuse angles for an optimized stress dissipation.

Contrary to the opinion of some, a wall thickness of 1mm in the center more than suffices in handling all the stresses from years of hardcore riding. Many other lightweight stems have similar wall thicknesses in a smaller diameter barrel and manage just fine. The transition from barrel to clamps matters more, where wall thickness easily increases to over double or even triple that of the center section. In fact, barrel wall thickness actually increases infinitesimally through tool wear sustained with volume CNC-turning. Thus later production units made with the same turning tooling actually gain weight compared to earlier ones, though this margin is negligible and with no discernible difference. Plenty of riders, even winners of major races, ride/rode aluminum frames with thinner and way longer butted tubes that hold up just fine.

When is a stem strong enough? For Wert Cycling this implies exceeding EN14781 (road bikes) and EN14766 (mountainbikes) safety standards that makes a stem suitable for competition during official UCI events.

A few of our stems got tested at EFBE with the EN14781 (see photo). EFBE's managing director recommended our latest stem for production, and even wants one for his own bike. For testing, the bolts were tightened to 7Nm yet the clamps also had zero issues. With post-test inspection, the 141 gram Schmolke FullOver TLO showed zero damage due to the optimized handlebar clamp interface. Fairwheel Bikes reviewed the FullOver SL bars as the 2nd stiffest and 2nd lightest overall with the best stiffness-to-weight ratio.

Video footage shows the handlebars bending like crazy with each cycle, yet stem deflection remains virtually unnoticeable. Stems for official ISO:FDIS certification require archiving, and Wert Cycling intends to provide a 145mm production specimen instead of this 130mm.



We rode this stem with 2.5Nm of torque and no carbon paste to hold the widest and longest reach drop bars we could find, with no any signs of bar slip, even under continuous bunny hopping and deliberate pothole hitting at >45km/h (I know because I tried). To ourselves we have proven that stems CAN be very light and stiff, durable, trouble-free, decent-looking and clamp well. Once we get production started, we can provide samples for other parties to do their independent testing, naturally before paying customers can take delivery. We find that demanding even more proving, such as in this thread, is unreasonable at this time. Wait for production!

To get a better impression of what others thought of our Straight Shooter stem, we let other riders try, and the resulting feedback was overwhelmingly positive. We feel no need to document their experiences as we expect testimonies from buyers once this stem is available. Peace out!

I want to commend you mythical all said. An earnest conversation was attempted and I believe largely achieved in spite of a remarkable amount of trolls on this site. A poor signal to noise ratio and the trolls here who have nothing to contribute to conversation, in an effort to engage, do the only thing they know which is to denigrate attempts to have a meaningful technical discussion. Above it perhaps your best post yet. Your tenacity and even temperament will bode well for your future success and is to be acknowledged and respected.

Back OT...it is quite interesting and would say there is a parallel between you and Thompson. I have owned many Thompson stems and seat posts for that matter as well having spent a fair amount of time riding off road. I agree...excellent products but I do find his stems heavy as you say. Superb machining as you know...Thompson also supplies to the very stringent aircraft industry which has very high technical standards.

But will further share my technical opinion. I am not much of a fan of Thompson stems all said. I don't believe there is much creativity to machining aka hogging material out of bar stock with a CNC machine. I prefer a forged stem. Material has a higher density and it is stronger per unit volume due to cold working. It is not too unlike choosing forged automobile road wheels versus cast.

But credit where credit is due. On an aesthetic level, your stem looks very nice indeed. It is certainly light enough. You have now published stiffness values and it is comparable to what's available in the industry...a good thing...components tend to have a sweet spot for stiffness...too stiff or too flexy is no good as you know. So what is a consumer getting for almost twice the price of Ritchey, Deda or 3T stem?...a slight weight save. To me as stated before, 20-30 grams is fairy dust in the grand scheme for twice the price...but others will pay for it...and perhaps for no other reason, the exclusivity of jewelry...not unlike buying a Rolex when a Casio keeps better time. No doubt for this cost premium because your materials chosen are ordinary...your profit will be invested to ensure your tolerances are held closely which become more critical when you remove weight as you have. Strength and fatigue life is the wild card and of course you pass the spec, but the field is the ultimate litmus test as you know...a spec is only a facsimile or bogie and not the real proof of the pudding. To me, as others have proposed...I believe you need a track record. But as interviewing for a job, how do you get experience without it?
I believe you need to get a run of these off...and hit up your rich uncle for a loan and then get your track record out there. Perhaps for no better reason to get your stems in the hands of amateur racers or strong club riders to establish a short track record. No doubt it would be expensive to make a run in different sizes but better riders tend to ride stems in the 120-130mm range because they size their frames down to obtain a shorter head tube and a longer stem offsets a shorter top tube of a smaller frame...so I believe this length is the best place to start.

Good luck and keep fighting the good fight. You are going for a very niche market so the demo is stacked against you in terms of selling a high enough volume to make a good profit...but the main demographic is steeped in competition so no quibbling with your business model there. But you have to make some and get your stems out there brother.

[mythical]

I think this forum is a great platform to connect with other cyclists. However, in the past, a lot of industry insiders used to post on this board, but many either faded away or left due to scrutiny or other reasons, such as life and/or business priorities. Or maybe simply a reluctance to share with the ever growing amount of members. I've stood at that point more than a few times but decided to shrug it off. This post began unintentional. All I wanted to do was share something I made. I had no idea what it would turn into, let alone given it any thought. This board actually helped me convinced that Wert Cycling should make the Straight Shooter stem, for all you guys out there.

I am one of those people that thinks 20 grams is worth $100

Great! What length and angle stem do/would you ride?

You forgot to answer the most important questions:

I left room for you to ask these.

What problem does this stem solve?

None whatsoever, unless you consider lack of stiffness in light stems and an abundance of mass in the stiffest stems a problem. Oh, and aesthetics, although that's rather subjective.

What are the magnitude(s) of said problems?

The order of magnitude is gargantuan. Never before has the world seen a CNC-machined aluminum stem with this range of sizes and angles. On top of that, we're looking to introduce head unit mounts for e.g. Garmin and SRM and that directly fit the handlebar clamps, thus freeing up handlebar real estate for aerobars, hands, lights, bar tape, more computers, etc. Not adding yet another clamp on the bars also makes this solution, not to mention the bonus of cleaner and more understated aesthetics.

What is the marginal cost/benefit point to price the entire operation?

There are fixed initial startup costs to produce this stem, like tooling and machine setup, that get divided by the number of production units of one series. Other costs pertain to the cost price of each incremental unit, like material costs. Our initial costs are so high that cost price is heavily affected in low volume production by increasing production numbers, we increase the investment but the yield increases exponentially after initial costs are covered. Let's say we're making roughly a dozen units. Our cost price would easily be around €10000. Double those costs, and we can roughly get a hundred units made. Double that number yet again, and we'll have about at least 500 production units at only quadruple the price of a dozen units.

It's more cost effective for Wert Cycling to commission production for a series of several hundreds of units in 14 sizes than to get a small batch made to give to riders (who are often sponsored anyway) while paying the same startup costs but generating no revenue to recoup the investment. Our prototypes already cost us about €1000 each. Thus far, we had 4 generations of prototypes, times about 2-3 pieces, made each time. That's not even adding testing costs.

Do you actually have a link to said feedback? I find very little about your operations and testing by doing a Google search.

No links exist AFAIK, since such testing took place IRL, and not in cyberspace. Generally, our product testers haven't publicly shared their experiences without asking Wert Cycling for permission, and we weren't asked.

As far as the stem goes, its intriguing and I appreciate the passion, but crowdfunding for me is a very grey area.

Thanks. As for crowdfunding, we didn't like the current platforms enough, thus we came up with what we believe to be a better solution: Giving backers full refunds plus their chosen Wert parts free of charge. We did the math and it's easily doable. That's basically what Wert Incrowdfunding entails.

On an aesthetic level, your stem looks very nice indeed. It is certainly light enough.

You're welcome. Interesting change of tune indeed.

I prefer a forged stem. Material has a higher density and it is stronger per unit volume due to cold working.

Likewise. As you probably know, parts can be near-net forged and need subsequent post-machining. Basically, Wert production stems are the reverse. We developed a solution to strengthen the stem barrel by cold working it after CNC-turning, to enhance strength and durability. Also, no shot-peening 'n stuff for our parts. We don't like that type of finish on a stem as we think it maks a stem looks cheap. Personally, I rather like the beauty of well-executed CNC milling cuts seen through the anodizing.

Anyway, there's a abundance of insights I can share about stem making as well as other parts that I won't even go into. Besides, not everyone will understand or appreciate the demystifyication of bike parts, right?

At first, many people have said that what Wert Cycling tries to do is impossible. Yet there is a method to the madness, which can be quite easily demonstrated and explained. I admit that I'm not a person who excels at that. Everything by Wert Cycling should be stiffer (or more comfortable in some cases), more than strong enough and lighter than the rest (exception: stupid light parts). The goal with Wert Cycling is to become a mainstream cycling brand, and not get placed into a niche that mostly focuses on saving weight. Our engineering requires a wholistic approach and rethinking of every detail of every part we intend to produce, like its construction, engineering and fabrication. We managed to work effectively in obscurity, without much pressure or exposure.

Together with seat collars and skewers, our stem is one of the first 3 planned product releases. For now, we keep our other parts that await patent application under wraps until the designated time has arrived. For example, a new crankset has been designed to improve every aspect of the 500 gram steel MYTH cranks. The weight includes chainrings, bearings but it's also unbelievably stiff. Our novel seatpost head design will make life a lot easier. it should also be lighter than the omnipresent cradle-yoke variety seatpost. We'll see whatever comes of these developments. First things first...

[highdraw]

I haven't changed my tune. I still maintain there is very little market for 20g = $100 and so you have what I consider to be an extreme uphill challenge to turn a profit and sustain your business.

Essentially, you are revealing more and answering more questions which is why our discourse has turned positive. You are engaging and revealing you are doing your due diligence which is positive and will bode better for your product if you can cultivate a market for your valuation of a commodity...in this case a bicycle stem.

And on to further substantive discussion.
You wrote:
As you probably know, parts can be near-net forged and need subsequent post-machining. Basically, Wert production stems are the reverse. We developed a solution to strengthen the stem barrel by cold working it after CNC-turning, to enhance strength and durability. Also, no shot-peening 'n stuff for our parts. We don't like that type of finish on a stem as we think it maks a stem looks cheap. Personally, I rather like the beauty of well-executed CNC milling cuts seen through the anodizing.

My response is probably what you may expect. Why? swim upstream and violate industry practice and go in reverse? You know the pitfalls...or I believe you do. You are essentially placing aesthetics in front of dimensional stability...aka control of your tolerances. Cold working to a given pressure has dimensional variation. Performing this 'after' CNC turning as you say to enhance strength and durability, removes the certainty of dimensional control by industry practice of machining after forging.

Can you describe what level of dimensional control you are giving up with this progression which I presume is to create a given look of mollifying a machined part with some increase in strength albeit with some compromise to dimensional uniformity? Or do you believe there is an actual benefit because of the downside of dimensional stability ie cylindricity of the barrel...or straightness of your stem. Further, quite sure you aren't cold working either end of the stem after machining because this would destroy the dimensional targets of both clamping surfaces. Further without forging the clamping surfaces you machined to hit precise diameter creating just the right level of handlebar interference to prevent slippage and steerer fit...you give up the added strength of cold working these connections to both bike and handlebar. Virtually all manufacturers would not accept this tradeoff and hence why conventional practices are adopted.

So wonder if you could expand your thinking which you admit is contrarian and seems to not be as positive as machining a stem after it is cold worked.

thanks

[KWalker]

Do you actually have a link to said feedback? I find very little about your operations and testing by doing a Google search.

Hey Karsten, can you provide a link to your various sources of news and 'insider info' over in the "'PRO' cycling discussion" thread? Occasionally you reference that someone on some team or staff told you such-and-such, but a quick Google search did not reveal who that person is or what they said.

Just pointing out that, despite everything, people (myself included), generally trust your "news" sources, and:
1. Mythical's work has been in the industry for quite sometime.
2. Not everything developed, in any industry, prior to going public, is "published" and spread across social media (which you are quite tuned in on, no?)
3. Not everything is on the internet. Not even in 2015... and I'm quite thankful for that. You should be too.

I'm not producing a physical product, just passing along pro heresay, which I clearly designate it as such. Nothing I repeat is a claim to my expertise, job skills, or anything related to the production of a bicycle part that requires significant knowledge to design to known safety/tolerance standards. Not even the same league. I've also provided people with sources or source tips off of the forum and if you read very carefully its very, very easy to tell who some of them are.

Where is his work in the industry?

Nope, I don't really use social media other than for some vague work stuff. I do, however, have some fairly good search/indexing tools and they seem to be unable to locate anything that Wert cycling is doing or has done that is not on this forum, Facebook, or repeats posted a few other places.

Wert claimed to have support for this effort, but that's what I was unable to find. I was attempting to look at what the demand was for such a product and how many early proponents were still interested in the design after the lengthy development time, lack of shipping, and continual excuses. I'm not an expert on the processes used to create such a stem, but have a close friend that is a CNC/machine shop professional that makes some fairly high end/lightweight parts for various forms of auto racing and personal aviation. They have rigorous testing facilities and when I explained to him (briefly), what would go into producing a bike stem he likened it to many items that are produced quite often without trouble.

This all led me to ask why is this effort even worth it? What is the problem that needs to be solved? Are current stems not stiff? Are they not strong? Are they orders of magnitude heavier than they could otherwise be?

[RyanH]

Kwalker, I think Mythical's challenge is fairly straightforward: they have a product they'd like to produce and sell for approx 200 euro. In order to do that, they need to do a run that'll cost them about 30,000 (anything less will not allow for profit). All fine and dandy except they do not have the capital. That's the problem.

Regarding the product itself, I felt it was fairly obvious the need they were trying to address: a light stem that was stiffer than current offerings. For the weightweenies (remember the forum we're on) we have limited options: Extralite, mcfk and ax. Extralite has a reputation for being less stiff, ax's Zeus stem can break and costs, what? 600 euro? Mcfk is a palatable option but is also very pricey. A stem that can achieve comparable stiffness to mainstream stems while maintaining appropriate strength / safety while weighing in the 80g range is something that I'm at least interested in, as well as I'm sure many others on this forum.

Also, this stem is contemplating losing 44g over a 3T arx, which for us WW, is not an insignificant sum.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[maxxevv]

My suggestion to the $$$ quandary, go garner interest in a whole range of popular forums catering to the lightweight obsessed. ( European forums seem far more developed in that aspect ). BikeRumour seems to be pretty supportive of startup programs.

Start A Kickstarter campaign. €30,000 or US$30,000 shouldn't be that difficult a target if you do your stealth marketing right.

[HammerTime2]

What is the problem that needs to be solved? ... Are they orders of magnitude heavier than they could otherwise be?

So a new WW product must be at least 10, if not 100 or 1000 times lighter than existing products in order to be worthwhile? By that standard, donald's sub 8 pound bike would not even be enough lighter than my father's 1939 vintage 50 or 60 pound Roadmaster heavyweight bike to be considered a worthwhile weight reduction.