Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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PSM
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by PSM

But is CS-R9100 ok?

TheDarkInstall
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

PSM wrote:But is CS-R9100 ok?


Haha, yeah that is the big question...

I am going to say...

No. It will be the same. Happy to be proved wrong!

by Weenie


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Asteroid
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Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

The Shimano 11sp locknut washers are very thin. Maybe at most 0.2mm each. No idea where you read "2mm of extra spacers." I explained that this hack worked for me. Not in theory. Not made up. Nothing wrong with my hub. Quit speculating. The lateral movement I'm talking about is probably not noticeable by most people. My hack eliminated the creaking. Case closed.

petal666 wrote:You've done something wrong if your cassette moves laterally on a 9000 hub. As for putting on 2mm of extra spacers, you'd be lucky to get the lock ring to engage. I think there is something wrong with your freehub.
Oldbie

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Asteroid
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Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

Anybody is free to try my solution to eliminate the creaking. These are extremely thin shims, not spacers. Look at the regular washer that comes with the DA 11sp cassette. Maybe each washer is about as thick as heavy duty tin foil.

Some things you're not thinking through:
* creaking occurs when pedalling hard on other cogs, not just the largest two on that first carrier.
* brand new cassette; no free play in the rivets that you refer to.
* my hack stopped the creaking.

Give it a try. Hell, make some shims from heavy duty tin foil. The lateral movement I described occurs on any of the cogs. Hardly noticeable, but enough to cause creaking. And, no, I'm not making any video; I feel I thoroughly described with words.

TheDarkInstall wrote:I agree with Petal666.

If you need to put spacers into the system for it to tighten adequately, when a Shimano cassette is being used on a Shimano hub, there is something not right.

Appreciate the break-down of the issue you are having, Asteroid, despite your edgy tone...

Any chance you can make a video of your issue happening?

Also, as you say this happens on a variety of hubs, which hubs are you specifically referring to? If the same cassette is having issues across a variety of hubs, there is something wrong with the cassette, or your installation.

As for nobody posting pictures of the first carrier rivets failing; the composite carrier suffers catastrophic failure, whereas the failure in the first carrier manifests itself in creaking and play. Less obvious, or noticeable to a lot of people, especially those not putting enough torque through the first carrier to start it creaking (ie, people not doing a lot of steep climbing).
Oldbie

ooo
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by ooo

pdlpsher1 wrote:The first carrier is alloy. The catastrophic failures only occur on the second carrier.


We can compare CS-9000 and CS-R9100 using PDF from Shimano :

EV-CS-R9100-4065.pdf

№12 is first carrier - it is different - "B" rating - Parts are interchangable, but differ in materials
№11 is second carrier - it is the same - "A" rating - same parts, same part numbers (Y1YC98130, Y1YC98140, Y1YC98150, Y1YC98160)
(the rest sprockets are also the same, except smallest 11T №3 and 12T №4)

edit: new link:

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-R9100-4065.pdf
Last edited by ooo on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'

TheDarkInstall
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by TheDarkInstall

Asteroid wrote:Some things you're not thinking through:
* creaking occurs when pedalling hard on other cogs, not just the largest two on that first carrier.
* brand new cassette; no free play in the rivets that you refer to.
* my hack stopped the creaking.


I am thinking things through, matey.

1. In my case, the creaking ONLY occurs in the top two cogs.
2. I have had this creaking on 4 different Dura Ace cassettes now. The creaking happened when brand new, as well as when the cassettes were old and had developed play.
3. I am glad your hack stopped your creaking.

Your creaking; does it happen on every cog, or just the top 5, which are held in the first and second carrier?

Given the nature of your solution, I still think you are installing something wrong. For clarity, can you list the hubs you have had this issue on, as you mention in your post that you have experienced this on a variety of hubs.

And again, a video of the lateral play would be very interesting to see.

mr4fox
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 2:01 pm

by mr4fox

ooo wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:The first carrier is alloy. The catastrophic failures only occur on the second carrier.


We can compare CS-9000 and CS-R9100 using PDF from Shimano :

EV-CS-R9100-4065.pdf

№12 is first carrier - it is different - "B" rating - Parts are interchangable, but differ in materials
№11 is second carrier - it is the same - "A" rating - same parts, same part numbers (Y1YC98130, Y1YC98140, Y1YC98150, Y1YC98160)
(the rest sprockets are also the same, except smallest 11T №3 and 12T №4)



ooo you seem to be pretty clued in on shimano tech stuff. i cant view that link you posted. it just says file not found. but do you haven any reason to think that newest Dura ace cassettes will be stronger and not break at the carbon spider/rivets?

I cracked the carbon spider at a couple rivets on the one and only Dura Ace 9000 cassette i ever owned. I believe it was the 'improved' version of that cassette with more rivets. but wondering if they're worth trying again now?

evan326
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by evan326

All of this has me scared to even try the 9100
I'm just tossing the weight vs money for 6800 vs xg1190 at this point

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

Belisarius wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:I'm seeing the DA cassette going on sale for $148. I have a feeling that Shimano is clearing the old stock and getting ready to launch a revised cassette. Anyone has info. on the new cassette?


It does not matter. won the TT portion of the Ottawa Fondo last year using the Hyperglide+Campy chain+ Gore cables. PERRREFECT setup

On my second bike, SRAM HYPER + SRAM chain + Yokozuna cables. Near perfect- the SRAM pings ocasionally, false catching. very rarely though, 1/50 miles or so if slowing down and reaccelerating.

Shimano cassette, PTFE and chain are GARBAGE. cannot believe we wasted a summer replacing parts under 3 yr warranty...


Wait, what's wrong with Dura Ace 9000 chain? In your opinion it's garbage, because...
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

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Cni2i
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by Cni2i

I have two bikes with DA 9000 11-28 cassette (not sure if it's pertinent, but bikes are 2015 SWTarmac and a 2016 No. 22 Reactor). Didn't have any issues (noise) when brand new, but after about 6K miles, I started to hear a grinding/cracking- like noise as described on this thread...but only when in the 50-19, 21, 23 combination (e.g., 50-21 on a 5.5% grade). When in the 34-21...spinning more, the noise was nonexistent. So not sure if it's the cassette or something else. I brought the bike in for a quick tune up...adjusting front and rear derailleur settings, checking proper torque on the cassette, still noisy. In the end, I got tired of trying to figure out the annoying noise, and just went with an Ultegra cassette. Low and behold, quiet. Although this IS WW site, the slight gain in weight for a quieter drivetrain was definitely an okay trade off for me.

In Shimano's defense, the DA 9000 cassette was fine the first 4-5K miles however.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I removed my UL cassette due to noise. I also found it had been causing ugly bite marks at the free hub body.
I moved to Edco Monoblock and no more noises
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Belisarius
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

mpulsiv wrote:
Belisarius wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:I'm seeing the DA cassette going on sale for $148. I have a feeling that Shimano is clearing the old stock and getting ready to launch a revised cassette. Anyone has info. on the new cassette?


It does not matter. won the TT portion of the Ottawa Fondo last year using the Hyperglide+Campy chain+ Gore cables. PERRREFECT setup

On my second bike, SRAM HYPER + SRAM chain + Yokozuna cables. Near perfect- the SRAM pings ocasionally, false catching. very rarely though, 1/50 miles or so if slowing down and reaccelerating.

Shimano cassette, PTFE and chain are GARBAGE. cannot believe we wasted a summer replacing parts under 3 yr warranty...


Wait, what's wrong with Dura Ace 9000 chain? In your opinion it's garbage, because...


Have you ever driven a Kia then switched to a BMW M series? That is the difference between the DA chain and SRAM. And Campy is an AMG Gt. So basically, when we were all riding 10 speed, inherent flaws where not obvious. Used to think that DA 10 speed gave me 1.5 km/hr extra boost. Then came 11 speed, and the Shimano flaws became critical. The metallurgy is crappy - ever seen it spot rust after a wash? The links and assembly wobbly. The chain after 1500 kms, with impeccable maintenance, becomes looser and looser. Finally, with poor metallurgy and design, it is WIDE. That 5.8mm width is incompatible with ANY of their 11 speed cassettes. People as myself and my former LBS owner (RIP), gave Shimano a hard time proving they never fit and above 27 km/hr, 30, 35+, it drags itself in contact with the sprockets. Or the DA cassettes bent and creaked. They forced the man to replace everything multiple times, and threatened to close his account after leaking the data to Nike radar. By then, evidences against Shimano was undeniable, people were crashing with brokes -PLASTIC CORE- cassettes. NOP< not carbon fibre. And rattly, soo rattly, BUT, Shimano had already admitted to that, claiming in 2014 the noise was due to chains touching and that they will 'wear' themselves in place. SRAM, at 5.5mm, 0.3mm narrower, much improvement. Really, already night and day. And Campy is the god. 5.3mm or pure space age metallurgy- for a few $ more. the difference between the Katana and some replica, what Campy is and Shimano is not. Campy is the Katana, Torsionally rigid, stable, no harmonic vibrations, quiet, PERFECTLY CENTERS, never touches adjacent cogs and so on. Two days ago my LBS was astonished measuring my Campy and could not believe my reporting 4,000 kms- as they have it as sub 50% wear, again, elite level. So I took the bet farther. I got the new DA R9100 rear derailleur and SURPRISE: the guide wheel IS NOT SRAM or Campy compatible. To improve the putrid DA gear changes, the GW teeth are Shimano width..So, 15 minutes of my life later, I shaped the GW to a campy chain width, went to LBS and assembled it, replacing the DA 9000 RD. The result astonished the shop- besides being a Mountain inspired design, the R9100 is indeed exceptional. But it is unmatched exceptional with the XG 1190 SRAM and Campy chain set up. The perfect quiet flawless centering is better than EPS. Faster than Campy shifting, stacado SRAM like shifts, and impeccable Campy gear after gear performance. Cable, Yokozuna. I then took it for a ride. As expected it was quieter and faster on the road than in the store, due to doppler effect, barely realizing shifting. This is the only true perfect set up, the one no doubt some Pros use but NDAs forbid them from mentioning it. But watching the TDF mechanics, I understood the technical fails on all Shimano or all Campy systems. Presently have 20,000 kms on these two bikes, no fails no issues. 100 kms with the new R9100 and it beats, hands down any Campy or DA system on the planet, even EPS- not in speed or self trimming, but reliable perfect gear setup.

The yoko cable we replaced, it had 5000 kms, it is perfect so will reuse it as a front shifter. No bends, nor elastic deformation in the steel strands.

Effect: quiet reliable, faster. gained 1.5km/hr average <30km/hr, and 0.5km.hr over 30.

petal666
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by petal666

Quality rant.

maquisard
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Location: France

by maquisard

KMC (allegedly) do OEM chain manufacture for Shimano.

Never had an issue with a Shimano chain.

by Weenie


paul64
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:38 am

by paul64

petal666 wrote:Quality rant.

Indeed, and I was ready to believe it all if only he hadnt included the BMW analogy at the beginning (not a brand that I respect).

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