Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
XCProMD
Posts: 549
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

TheDarkInstall wrote:I agree with all of the above, and we shouldn't have to do things like apply lube to the rivets, but at the same time, cassettes shouldn't creak like hell, so my video is a solution / fix / hack to the problem, rather than instructions to be followed for every cassette out there.


As a hack it is completely fine, and I have run quite a number of hacks on my bikes over the years. I like them actually!


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

CerveloBert
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:43 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

by CerveloBert

TheDarkInstall wrote:Very late, I know, but I have found the source of the creaking that loads of people get, and fixed it.

This will be applicable to the new 9100 cassette too, to I thought it worth posting.

So, here it is...

The creaking comes from the top two largest cogs, which are mounted to a metal carrier with 6 rivets. The rivets are where the creaking comes from.

To fix this, you simply need to lube/oil each one of these rivets. I use Silicone lubricant out of a spray can with a thin nozzle to accurately spray each rivet. I do this about once a week, and I have not had a single creak out of the cassette since starting this. Previously, I was getting a massive spring like creaking sound which was both extremely annoying and had me worried that something was about to snap!

Looking at the rivets, on a cassette that has been ridden (and specifically, which has been climbed hard in low gears), you can see each rivet is slightly offset where the two cogs have shifted with the force of the chain.

So there you go.


This saved my brain from imploding into a black hole. You have probably saved a life... maybe even my marriage.

by Weenie


4151zero
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: SFO

by 4151zero

This whole time I thought it was my zipp hub slop, not the 9000 cassette rivet.

CerveloBert
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:43 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

by CerveloBert

I actually thought it was my skewer forever, if there's a creak on the bike you're going to naturally look EVERYWHERE before looking at a cassette. I'd sooner service every bearing and retorque every bolt before even thinking about looking at the rivet on a cassette.

TheDarkInstall
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

CerveloBert wrote:
TheDarkInstall wrote:Very late, I know, but I have found the source of the creaking that loads of people get, and fixed it.

This will be applicable to the new 9100 cassette too, to I thought it worth posting.

So, here it is...

The creaking comes from the top two largest cogs, which are mounted to a metal carrier with 6 rivets. The rivets are where the creaking comes from.

To fix this, you simply need to lube/oil each one of these rivets. I use Silicone lubricant out of a spray can with a thin nozzle to accurately spray each rivet. I do this about once a week, and I have not had a single creak out of the cassette since starting this. Previously, I was getting a massive spring like creaking sound which was both extremely annoying and had me worried that something was about to snap!

Looking at the rivets, on a cassette that has been ridden (and specifically, which has been climbed hard in low gears), you can see each rivet is slightly offset where the two cogs have shifted with the force of the chain.

So there you go.


This saved my brain from imploding into a black hole. You have probably saved a life... maybe even my marriage.


Haha, glad to be of service.

So did this work for you then?

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Asteroid
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

I disagree that the creaking comes from the rivets. The cassette will creak on pretty much all cogs. I think I found a solution, though. Evidently, on many freehubs the CS-9000 will not fully cinch down in stock form. If you pinch the largest cog and move it horizontally, you will notice a tiny bit of play. This leads to the creaking!

My solution is simple: add a shim or two to the locknut, which compresses the cogs fully and eliminates the play. I used old Shimano washers from other 11sp locknuts. Works like a charm. Figured this out today after installing a brand new DA cassette on my C24 9000 wheel.
Oldbie

TheDarkInstall
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

Asteroid wrote:I disagree that the creaking comes from the rivets. The cassette will creak on pretty much all cogs. I think I found a solution, though. Evidently, on many freehubs the CS-9000 will not fully cinch down in stock form. If you pinch the largest cog and move it horizontally, you will notice a tiny bit of play. This leads to the creaking!

My solution is simple: add a shim or two to the locknut, which compresses the cogs fully and eliminates the play. I used old Shimano washers from other 11sp locknuts. Works like a charm. Figured this out today after installing a brand new DA cassette on my C24 9000 wheel.


It absolutely is the rivets.

Your observations prove this; the 'horizontal' movement you are feeling is not due to the freebody being too long for the cassette, rather it is exactly the play in the rivets on the largest two cogs I was talking about. It is not due to the freebody being too long. I have never seen a freebody that is too long to allow for the cassette to be tightened down hard, especially from Shimano!

I have more info on this which I found the other day. Will be making a video on this when I get the chance, but to summarise;

Taking the cassette off, and holding the top two cogs section, you can feel play in the rivets by twisting the cogs against eachother with your hands. On cassettes that have a lot of kms on them, you can actually see the moving with your eyes.

TheDarkInstall
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

Right, here you go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnCj-LQpf0

Play in the rivets. This cassette is not even that old. I have been through 4 DA9000 cassettes now, and they all do this... So as well as the composite carrier cracking apart, the rivets are also shoddy.

scottmmw
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:31 am

by scottmmw

will have to try oil the rivets on my cassette, see how the noise is after

User avatar
Asteroid
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

by Asteroid

Well, you posted a nice little video showing some cog movement, but your logic is flawed. Moreover, you did not closely read what I said. And, yes, before putting a brand spankin new cassette on my WH-9000 C24's (recently repacked hubs, in fact), I sprayed lubricant on the rivets on the two carriers to no avail.

With that non-working solution in mind, follow my method to isolate:
1. Experienced creaking in ALL gears, when putting decent pressure on the pedals.
2. Noticed lateral movement of cassette. This applies to the entire set of 11 cogs, incidentally.
3. Removed locknut and inserted two extra washers.
4. Tightened locknut to proper torque setting.
5. Observed lateral movement eliminated entirely.
6. No more creaking in any gears.

I might go on to surmise that the tiny bit of play could lead to the 2nd carrier failures posted here. Oddly enough, I do not recall anybody posting pics of the first carrier rivets failing. Your results may vary.


TheDarkInstall wrote:
Asteroid wrote:I disagree that the creaking comes from the rivets. The cassette will creak on pretty much all cogs. I think I found a solution, though. Evidently, on many freehubs the CS-9000 will not fully cinch down in stock form. If you pinch the largest cog and move it horizontally, you will notice a tiny bit of play. This leads to the creaking!

My solution is simple: add a shim or two to the locknut, which compresses the cogs fully and eliminates the play. I used old Shimano washers from other 11sp locknuts. Works like a charm. Figured this out today after installing a brand new DA cassette on my C24 9000 wheel.


It absolutely is the rivets.

Your observations prove this; the 'horizontal' movement you are feeling is not due to the freebody being too long for the cassette, rather it is exactly the play in the rivets on the largest two cogs I was talking about. It is not due to the freebody being too long. I have never seen a freebody that is too long to allow for the cassette to be tightened down hard, especially from Shimano!

I have more info on this which I found the other day. Will be making a video on this when I get the chance, but to summarise;

Taking the cassette off, and holding the top two cogs section, you can feel play in the rivets by twisting the cogs against eachother with your hands. On cassettes that have a lot of kms on them, you can actually see the moving with your eyes.
Oldbie

petal666
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:19 am
Location: Brisbane, Oz
Contact:

by petal666

You've done something wrong if your cassette moves laterally on a 9000 hub. As for putting on 2mm of extra spacers, you'd be lucky to get the lock ring to engage. I think there is something wrong with your freehub.

TheDarkInstall
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

I agree with Petal666.

If you need to put spacers into the system for it to tighten adequately, when a Shimano cassette is being used on a Shimano hub, there is something not right.

Appreciate the break-down of the issue you are having, Asteroid, despite your edgy tone...

Any chance you can make a video of your issue happening?

Also, as you say this happens on a variety of hubs, which hubs are you specifically referring to? If the same cassette is having issues across a variety of hubs, there is something wrong with the cassette, or your installation.

As for nobody posting pictures of the first carrier rivets failing; the composite carrier suffers catastrophic failure, whereas the failure in the first carrier manifests itself in creaking and play. Less obvious, or noticeable to a lot of people, especially those not putting enough torque through the first carrier to start it creaking (ie, people not doing a lot of steep climbing).

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

The first carrier is alloy. The catastrophic failures only occur on the second carrier.

Image

scottmmw
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:31 am

by scottmmw

Interesting video showing the free movement, will take a closer look at my cassette when I remove it next!

by Weenie


TheDarkInstall
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:44 am

by TheDarkInstall

pdlpsher1 wrote:The first carrier is alloy. The catastrophic failures only occur on the second carrier.

Image


That is what I said.

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