Shimano Ultegra 11 speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Guerdi
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by Guerdi

SvenNijs wrote:Interested to see what 6870 will look like.


Image

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MattSoutherden
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by MattSoutherden

Mmmm. I think it might be time to go electric.
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by Weenie


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TrekUk
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by TrekUk

with the current ultegra and decent shimano cables unless there is significant weight reduction I dont see much to get excited about yet.

I have decided to upgrade to the new dura-ace 9000 mechanical.
Madone Five Series 2013
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Liggero
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by Liggero

davidalone wrote:
havana wrote:I fail to understand Shimano's crank strategy. No BB30, weird 4-arm design, assymetric blades, no 110mm 39T blades, etc, etc.


shimano does not do BB30 because they do not believe that BB30 is a superior standard. they have argued this before, and as a mechanical engineer, their argument does have merits. BB30 gives you a tiny and, to a human, imperceptible increase in stiffness for much much higher complexity in maintaining the system. you get smaller Q factor, yes, but that is not a good enough reason IMO. it is, technically more robust to the elements than outboard bearings, but they are a PAIN to replace if something goes wrong. outboard cransk are much easier to replace, more versatile, and less likely to damage your frame on installation. same goes for PF30, and to an extent, BB86 and BBright as well. shimano will also make less money. so I DO see why they would not support BB30.

BB30 is popular among frame manufacturers because it saves them money. it's much faster and cheaper to purchase an OE spec bearing and press it into the fram than having to machine out steel threaded inserts and bond them into frames. it's a simple case of frame manufacturers versus shimano here. but shimano is sticking to their guns and as the major industry player, they have evrey right and clout to do so.

the 4 arm design may LOOK weird, but it offers tangible engineering benefits. the 4 arm design has been on shimano MTB cranks for awhile now. 4 arms are lighter than 5 arms, and shimano claim that the crank still retains the same level of stiffness. in addition, the new 4 arm design makes 110 or 130mm BCD pointless. you can put a 50-34 on that crank. you can also put a 53-39 on the very same crank. this is a game changer. cuts down inventory that stores need to hold ( you don't neeed to carry both compact and standard cranks anymore.) it also streamlines manufacturing. these savings may eventuaklly be passed down to the consumer if enough people follow their 4 arm standard and make chainrings for 4 arm cranks. ( shimano chainrigns are great but exoensive.) the problem here is that most other crank or chainring manufacturers are 5 arm, so they are trying to revolutionize the game here. My feeling is that this is a real game changer. once you get used to the 4 arm design, it actually looks pretty cool.

the new crank is certainly an impressive bit of techy kit and I'll be trying to get my hands on one as soon as ultegra 6800 comes out.


I think what you say is partly right and partly wrong;

The main reason why shimano doesn't go for a wider axle standard is because they believe, for the moment, that steel is the best material for a crank arms axle. And using steel, 24mm is the best.

Now, I think a 30mm or larger standard is much much better, because I think, contrary to shimano, that aluminium is a better material for this axle, as it will be lighter. A bit more or a bit less of stiffness makes so little difference that i think it matter much much less than weight here.

About bb30, it's a really bad standard. It's not bullet proof, and shimano likes bullet proof stuff (they do no carbon cranks, no titanium pedal axles... )The idea is good but bearings last very little. These bearings should be much bigger or thicker to make a good standard. Press fit bb30 is better though. Press fit is the way to go for many reasons, but mainly, it makes a stiffer frame, and the bearings have a better support, more gentle and which makes bearings last much longer.

I think shimano should go for aluminium axles and create a new global standard, like a 35mm axle with huge bearings, or with 2 bearings per side. And I believe they will do it sooner or later, but they have a hard head in shimano, so it will take them a few years I think.
Happy Trails !!!

Kurt
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by Kurt

Ok, now I think I'm ready to upgrade from Ultegra 9-speed. I never thought 10-speed would catch on, so I'm glad I waited

davidalone
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by davidalone

why is steel for 24 mm 'the best'? how are you defining the best. most stiff for lightest weight? there is no 'best'. basically you'd select a chosen level of stiffness/weight compromise you want and go from there.

the stiffness ( ability to resist deflection ) of a circular shaft are dependent on the elasticity of the material, length, and area moment of inertia of the beam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_(engineering" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) .

I for a circular hollow shaft is dependent on the difference between the inner and outer radius.
I'm no shimano engineer, and I don't have the calculations with me, but it should be possible to make a crank axle made of aluminium as stiff as the steel one. you'd just have to use a larger diameter ( hence the 30mm axles.) would it be lighter? Not necessarily. it would depend on the wall thickness and length of your crank. besides. your weight savings is taken back up by the bigger bearings, so it's basically a wash. by the same note, you could certianly make a 30mm axle out of steel. it wouldnt necessarily be heavier. you'd just have to play around with the other variables.

do note that the sacrifice for this would be that the crank would be less bombproof. aluminium is far softer than steel and more susceptible to stress cracking and shear failure. Titanium... slightly better, but still not as good. steel is used here because it is STIFF and BOMBPROOF in a place that you really, cannot afford to fail. and also relatively cheap.

bigger bearings better? slightly true... to an extent. you could actually mitigate this by designing a better bearing system ( e.g. using angular contact rather than radial contact.) shimano bearings already last a really long time, so I don't really see an advantage here. the fact remains that PF30/BB30 BBs still make maintainence a PITA. with the risk of damaging your frame when replacing them. stiffer frame with pf30? very, very, very, marginal. you're right that shimano goes with bombproof stuff. outboard bearings are bombproof and easily replaceable. AND also much more easy to find. if you are a pro with a mechanic who wrenches for you and who can afford a damaged frame by all means, BB 30 has advantages for you. for regular joes like us, regular outboard bearings are still much more practical.

dmoneysworks
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by dmoneysworks

Rush wrote:I hope they make a glossy silver option.


+1 ~ to date I've never liked a shimano group in solid black. Yuk!

twoangstroms
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by twoangstroms

Great info, everyone -- thanks.

But... since I'm starting to look to replace a Red (not "New Red")-equipped Tarmac SL2, this makes my choices even harder. Especially since I'm looking at used or closeouts.

Is there a simple upgrade path from 10-speed Ultegra electric to 11-speed, when that becomes a standard?

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TrekUk
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by TrekUk

Kurt wrote:Ok, now I think I'm ready to upgrade from Ultegra 9-speed. I never thought 10-speed would catch on, so I'm glad I waited



what on earth are you talking about? 10 speed would never catch on? :shock:
Madone Five Series 2013
Shimano Dura-Ace 9000
Mavic Cosmic SLE 2013


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CBJ
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by CBJ

New Di2 looks amazing.

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Liggero
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by Liggero

davidalone wrote:why is steel for 24 mm 'the best'? how are you defining the best. most stiff for lightest weight? there is no 'best'. basically you'd select a chosen level of stiffness/weight compromise you want and go from there.

the stiffness ( ability to resist deflection ) of a circular shaft are dependent on the elasticity of the material, length, and area moment of inertia of the beam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_(engineering" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) .

I for a circular hollow shaft is dependent on the difference between the inner and outer radius.
I'm no shimano engineer, and I don't have the calculations with me, but it should be possible to make a crank axle made of aluminium as stiff as the steel one. you'd just have to use a larger diameter ( hence the 30mm axles.) would it be lighter? Not necessarily. it would depend on the wall thickness and length of your crank. besides. your weight savings is taken back up by the bigger bearings, so it's basically a wash. by the same note, you could certianly make a 30mm axle out of steel. it wouldnt necessarily be heavier. you'd just have to play around with the other variables.

do note that the sacrifice for this would be that the crank would be less bombproof. aluminium is far softer than steel and more susceptible to stress cracking and shear failure. Titanium... slightly better, but still not as good. steel is used here because it is STIFF and BOMBPROOF in a place that you really, cannot afford to fail. and also relatively cheap.

bigger bearings better? slightly true... to an extent. you could actually mitigate this by designing a better bearing system ( e.g. using angular contact rather than radial contact.) shimano bearings already last a really long time, so I don't really see an advantage here. the fact remains that PF30/BB30 BBs still make maintainence a PITA. with the risk of damaging your frame when replacing them. stiffer frame with pf30? very, very, very, marginal. you're right that shimano goes with bombproof stuff. outboard bearings are bombproof and easily replaceable. AND also much more easy to find. if you are a pro with a mechanic who wrenches for you and who can afford a damaged frame by all means, BB 30 has advantages for you. for regular joes like us, regular outboard bearings are still much more practical.


You should ask shimano why 24mm is the optimal diameter for steel, not me. But yes, i agree with them without knowing the data. Smaller would be less stiff, heavier. Lager would be heavier or too weak due to smaller wall thickness. The rest I agree with you, although you seem to forget that shimano is already using press fit with 24mm, and it works as good as outward bearings.

And yes, 30 or 35mm diameter with an aluminium axle is the best, that's why shimano will have to endorse it at some point, but I don't think they will follow bb30 standard if they haven't done so yet. I think they will start another new standar that will eliminate bb30 and all its offsprings.
Happy Trails !!!

thisisatest
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by thisisatest

Shimano doesn't trust frame manufacturers when it comes to bb cup dimensional tolerances. For the most part, they're right. 95% of all bb30/pf30 problems have to do with frame manufacturer tolerances or their (assembled bike) installation methods.
Steel is preferred for a 24mm spindle. Ti may be good too, I haven't done the math. As high grades steel, ti, aluminum have similar STW ratios, it becomes a question of how large can you make the item, and how thin you can make the walls. For tubing, a general rule is you don't want the wall thickness to go beyond 1/50th the diameter (or radius, I can't remember...). A steel spindle at 30mm would require too thin a wall to be of equal weight to an aluminum one. you would get buckling.
Shimano used to make some aluminum 24mm spindles. It was on the first 5600 and 6600 cranks. When they came out with their half-upgrade 6600g, they moved it up to steel.

Kurt
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by Kurt

TrekUk wrote:
Kurt wrote:Ok, now I think I'm ready to upgrade from Ultegra 9-speed. I never thought 10-speed would catch on, so I'm glad I waited



what on earth are you talking about? 10 speed would never catch on? :shock:


I was kidding and making fun of myself for still running 9-speed. Unfortunately I forgot the smiley. My bad. :D

by Weenie


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shabbasuraj
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by shabbasuraj

Shimano rules supreme... I am so glad they have no BB30 for their new stuff. New asymmetrical Ultegra is just hot.
Mass Weenie

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