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BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:47 am
by todibble
Did some searching and haven't found much comparison. I've got a pair of DA 7700 32h hole hubs looking for rims. I'm considering these two (no tubulars, as much as I would love to).

I'm a strong rider (350w ftp, ~1300 w sprint) and I'm not particularly easy on equipment. I've done a lot of racing, but I've recently graduated to dad status, so transitioning into weekend warrior. It's flat where I live, but I'm near hills so that's a consideration.

If I went with the H+ Son Archetype I'm leaning toward the hard anodized (based on what's been posted) – worth the price premium? The c472 seems to be the best of every world, but there's got be a catch, right?

I haven't settled on spokes either, but that's a bit easier of a question.

So, which rim would you choose? Why?

Thanks!

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:11 am
by istigatrice
I emailed Brandon the exact same question, he replied with:

Hi,

Thanks for your email.

The finish/anodizing, feel, and especially the welded joint all look nicer on the Archetype. It just feels like a more substantial and just "finer" rim. That said, the c472w (a Kinlin) has been a pretty much flawless - I've sold hundreds and customers love them. I can't say which rim is stiffer, but the c472w might have the edge given its deeper profile (customers regularly remark on how stiff it is).

Time will tell which is the superior rim, but from what I've heard, people really like the Archetype. My test builder/rider has several thousand miles on his Archetypes and he loves them, but he hasn't compared them to the c472w. My other customers must now have hundreds of thousands of miles on their c472w wheelsets and I haven't had one complaint yet.

Cheers,
Brandon

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:11 am
by Weenie

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:16 am
by Zen Cyclery
Go with the Kinlin (BHS). Overall, it is great quality when considering the price. Additionally, I think it has a really versatile profile.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:01 am
by Bingomck
Like the question. Thanks for asking.

Curious, did you consider the Heds or A23?

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:29 am
by todibble
Thanks for the replies.

It's tough to figure out where to go - on the surface the only appreciable difference is price and aesthetics. Based on Zen's recommendation I think I'll probably go for the BHS/Kinlin. The Archetype rims would need something to set them apart given the price premium, but there doesn't appear to be much outside of finish quality, which I'm willing to overlook to some extent.

Bingomck - the Heds are in a different price category, so I didn't consider them (though they are sweet). I did consider the A23, but found myself drawn the these two because of the slightly deeper profiles. My understanding of aerodynamics is that the wide rims strongly favor a rounded trailing edge. The short rim profile on the A23 turned me off of it. It is supposed to build into a great wheel, though, and certainly is a competitor here.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:04 pm
by illuminaught
Archetypes can be found for $50 online.
Pm me if you have trouble finding them.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:08 pm
by MajorMantra
If it helps your decision, the Archetypes I'm building at the moment have come in at less than the 470g I've seen reported. Haven't weighed my two 24h rims but the 20h ones are 441 and 458g.

Finish quality is really nice, and brake track DOES appear to be machined on these black ones, contrary to what some have posted.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:39 pm
by 1415chris
Just to clarify, Archetype's brake surface i machined.

http://hplusson.com/products/archetype"

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:44 pm
by WMW
todibble wrote:So, which rim would you choose? Why?


Brandon did a good job of describing the differences, but I'd add that the Kinlin rim has a very nice aero profile with 23mm tires. The shape and depth will give them a little speed advantage over the Archetype. I've been out in some gusty crosswinds in mine, and so far no effect on handling at all.

But on the other hand, the Archetype has other nice features... a little lighter, blasted finish, welded joint. I'm not a fan of hard anodizing on rims... I'd steer clear of that unless it is very important to you to maintain the grey brake track. And even then it will eventually wear through and look like crap.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:35 pm
by garth
I'm happy to see this thread too as I've been trying to decide between these two rims (and the A23) to lace to a pair of 28h Tune hubs.

I'm leaning towards the A23 since they are the lightest but I'm also considering the C472w just because they'll likely become dual purpose road/cyclocross wheels in the future.

The Archetype look great new but I'm concerned how crappy they will look once the anodizing wears off. Plus the sharp rim profile looks a bit weird IMO.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:58 pm
by Zen Cyclery
@garth- I like the ride quality of the Kinlin a bit more than the Velocity. The A23 definitely has a bit more of a twitchy feel, where as the XC279 gives you a bit more stability particularly on the flats and slight downhill. On the contrare, I do have buddies who thought that the Kinlin was a bit sluggish under acceleration.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:16 pm
by garth
@Zen... Thanks for your input. I actually have a set of Kinlin XC279 (BHS C472w) laced 2x 28/28 to DT240 hubs on my cyclocross bike that I've been riding for a few months. I'm really happy with them as a cross wheel but when I swapped them onto my road bike (with Veloflex Master 23) I definitely noticed their sluggish acceleration compared to my existing road wheels (Tune 70/170 laced 2x 20/24 to XR270).

Of course I can't really compare them since the Tune/XR270 were built to be lightweight race wheels and my new build is going to be for commuting/training.

Could you explain "twitchy" a bit more? Like twitchy as in regards to handling or twitchy as in the rims flex under load?

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:19 pm
by neverwasbeen
Thanks to Zen and all for the great info on comparing these rims. Just to extend it a little further, I might be able to get a good price on some 32h Hed C2's to lace to record hubs as my training set. It seems they're generally not considered above due to price & availability, but if you can get them for a small premium to archetypes, I was wondering if anyone could provide some pros / cons between the Hed and the Archetype? Would either be better for a 32 / 32 build (using Dt competition, maybe revolution for NDS) for an 80kg fella?

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:29 pm
by Zen Cyclery
@garth- What I mean by twitchy is that the handling characteristics of the A23 will be quicker and more responsive, both in cornering and acceleration when compared to the Kinlin. You can definitely tell that the A23 is much lighter rim especially when riding it. The extra rotational mass of the XC279 seems to give it a bit more of that "riding on rails" feeling, which is what I prefer. However, considering the forum that were on, its obvious that most prefer to feel as if they have the lightest wheelset possible.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
by WMW
garth wrote:I'm happy to see this thread too as I've been trying to decide between these two rims (and the A23) to lace to a pair of 28h Tune hubs.


The A23 is a very shallow and consequently not very stiff rim. You will need more spokes to achieve similar stiffness. And the weight difference isn't that much.

I think the Stan's 340 is a better bet... 50-60g lighter per rim than the A23, a little stiffer, and it produces the widest and roundest tire profile.

Re: BHS c472w vs. H Plus Son Archetype

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
by Weenie