Spokes and Lacing Pattern for 20mm Carbon Tubs

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
yz387
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:24 pm

by yz387

I have decided to pick up a set of the 20mm Planet X rims to lace to my Bikehubstore hubs. Now I need to decide on the spokes and lacing pattern. I an thinking:

Front (24 hole)
Pattern: Radial
Type: Sapim Laser
Nipple: Brass

Rear (24 hole)
Pattern (2X\2X)
Type: Sapim Race?
Nipple: Brass

What do you think? For the record I am 155 lbs and plan to use these wheels as my crit and backup road race wheels in the summer and for dry weather cross races in the fall.

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ergott
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by ergott

Those patterns make sense to me.

- :beerchug:

clarkson
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:23 am

by clarkson

With that exact combination, my rear wheel had a rather massive disparity between NDS and DS tension. I experimented with a couple of lacing patterns, before settling on Radial drive side and 2x non-drive. I've been thrilled with it now probably 5000km on.

octav
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:40 pm
Location: Bucharest/Romania

by octav

The same question for me. I want to build a set of Planet X with some Taiwan hubs.

I want to get this hubs, a friend of mine recommended them to me.
http://www.bikehubstore.com/product-p/ul277fr.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, I want to build them with DT Revolution(would these be ok) or I should go to something stronger?
I am 67 kg.
Why do you want Brass niples and not Aluminum?
Also, on the front I want to go to 20h.

LE: I saw that you have bikehubstore hubs. How are they? What model do you have?

yz387
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:24 pm

by yz387

Clarkson, thanks for the feedback. with your current lacing pattern (radial DS, 2X NDS) are you running Sapim Race spokes on both sides? When you say you had the same combonation, I assume that means you used the PlanetX rims as well? Sounds like the rims are holding up well for you which is good to hear.

Octav, I have the BHS hubs, but they are still in the box so I cannot comment on them. As for the choice of brass nipples; in all my years or riding/racing road, cross and MTB, I have never broken a spoke, but I have broken a alloy nipple. So in my mind, that seems to be the weak link. I figure it only adds a few grams to go brass and hopefully that will make for a more robust build.

ergott, does the radial DS, 2X NDS pattern make sense to you as well?

pwork
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:12 pm

by pwork

I'm lacing some up tonight to Alchemy's 2x/2x. Will let you know how it turns out. SpoCalc is saying 54% on the NDS. I weigh 140 and had good luck with 2x/2x when these hubs were laced to XR-300's, using CX-Ray's. With the BHS rear, looks like you'd be @ 45% 2x/2x, 72% 2x/0x (Heads in on DS).

BTW, I got a 20/24 combo. They weighed 261 and 270. I'm not thrilled with the workmanship, there are a few voids in the carbon. I don't think they'll affect the integrity of the rim, but you get what you pay for!

clarkson
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:23 am

by clarkson

I'm using sapim laser spokes for front and NDS rear. I think I've got DT competition on the DS rear, simply due to availability at the time. I've been meaning to swap them out for lasers as well. Alloy nipples all around.

My 20mm rims were from Archteks, but I'd be shocked if they weren't the same thing.

I've ordered a big pile of the BHS road hubs, and have been thrilled with them. For the price, I don't think they can be beat.

rruff
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by rruff

pwork wrote:With the BHS rear, looks like you'd be @ 45% 2x/2x, 72% 2x/0x (Heads in on DS).


How are you getting 72%?

To the OP... I've built a few wheels 1x heads-in on the DS, if the hub has too little DS offset. The BHS hub does. But you'd want to use spokes with short butts at the J... and CX-Rays would really be best. Lacing radial would help, but then you are asking the NDS to take all torque loads. Since the main reason for increasing DS spacing is to increase NDS tension and keep those spokes from going slack, it's a trade off... you probably won't have high radial loads and high torque at the same time, so maybe it won't be a problem. Still, I think you'd want at least 1x on the DS if you plan to sprint on very steep pitches.

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ergott
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by ergott

I've had fewer problems using a heavier gauge spoke for the DS than using CX-Rays laced all heads in. Consider using DT Competitions or Sapim Race there. You improve lateral stiffness and the higher tension spokes are transmitting torque. With a radial DS/2X NDS pattern, you have lower tension spokes transmitting the torque and if they are not high enough to prevent slack spokes, you run into all sorts of problems. The most noticeable is creaking at the spoke crossings.

If the tension will be too low on the NDS then using a radial, heads out pattern there will make the best of things.


-

bricky21
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by bricky21

ergott wrote:I've had fewer problems using a heavier gauge spoke for the DS than using CX-Rays laced all heads in. Consider using DT Competitions or Sapim Race there. You improve lateral stiffness and the higher tension spokes are transmitting torque. With a radial DS/2X NDS pattern, you have lower tension spokes transmitting the torque and if they are not high enough to prevent slack spokes, you run into all sorts of problems. The most noticeable is creaking at the spoke crossings.

If the tension will be too low on the NDS then using a radial, heads out pattern there will make the best of things.


-


Would heavier gauge spokes on both sides increase radial stiffness as well? What I mean is would the larger spokes have less potential to go slack do to their size, or would a 2.0 straight gauge go slack just the same as a CX-Ray at the same tension?

rruff
Shop Owner
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Location: Alto, NM

by rruff

bricky21 wrote:Would heavier gauge spokes on both sides increase radial stiffness as well? What I mean is would the larger spokes have less potential to go slack do to their size, or would a 2.0 straight gauge go slack just the same as a CX-Ray at the same tension?


You'd want light spokes on the NDS. The heavier DS spokes would then take more of the radial load, making it less likely the NDS will go slack.

Heavier gauge spokes are *more* likely to go slack on the NDS, because for a given tension, they are less stretched. A spoke with a 1.5mm center is stretched about twice as far as a 2.0 spoke.

NONAME
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by NONAME

24 front radial , 24 rear 2 x , spokes Mac 424, you can make rear on 28 an 3 x

I make a wheels with MAC 424 ( mtb , road, 29 er... ) , are little heavier than Cx ray, but chiper and more stiff than ....

example https://picasaweb.google.com/1104808309 ... 2140202658"

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Maximilian
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by Maximilian

I built up these rims this time last year and I really like them so far, especially at the price.

I weigh 133lbs;

Front 24h (stiffer than the 20 given the very low flanges on the AC),
American Classic 58, Radial.
DT Aerolite,
Alu Nipples

Rear 24h,
FFWD Hub, 2X drive and non-drive sides
DT Aerolite
Alu Nipples.

For me they are plenty stiff, ride well and are very light for the money. I rode them for 2 weeks around Morzine in France in the summer and the braking seems good, I had no problems with the switch backs (SS Yellow pads). I have ridden them in the local crits too and the acceleration is great.

Maximilian.
--Max.

yz387
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:24 pm

by yz387

Thanks for all the feedback; there is a lot of great info here. I am still a unsure what I want to do about the rear. I really like the theory of evening out the spoke tension by doing radial, heads in, DS and 2X NDS, but I am a little concerned about asking the NDS flange take all of the torque load. It is tempting though. My 303 rear wheel uses radial DS and 1X NDS, but then again, that is a hub designed by Zipp so they know that they designed it to carry the torque load to the NDS side.

As for the idea of doing radial with heads out on the NDS side, I have considered this as well as it will improve the tension ratio from 45% (2X/2X) to 55%. Of course this is accomplished by reducing the bracing angle. So is it worth is to give up bracing angle to improve the tension ratio? I am guessing the answer is yes, but I would like to hear it from the experts.

Also, what would be the recommended spoke tension for these wheels?

clarkson
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:23 am

by clarkson

Rim manufacturer is the best person to confirm maximum spoke tension. I seem to recall 120 Kgf maximum, but make sure to check your specific rims.

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