Origin Myth: Asian mass production vs. small, handmade shops

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Quickdraw
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by Quickdraw

stephen@fibre-lyte wrote: It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners. Does that make those opinions Xenophobic?

That made me laugh! I think that this opinion is held by many on this side of the pond too, so it is not just a question of perspective. The reputation is certainly deserved based upon the US-made muscle cars of the 60's and 70's. I'm not sure we've (i.e. Americans and the American car industry) done too much to change that, especially compared to what comes out of Europe, but some of the higher end American cars probably hold up better by comparison than they used to. That sort of dovetails well with something I think you said earlier; namely that once you get such a reputation it can be difficult to change the public's perception.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

bones wrote:I once saw an episode on the Jerry Springer show where the head of the KKK claimed to have black friends. So no. The fact that the Best in Show award this year went to an Asian builder does not mean jack.
You actually think that validates your extremist rantings? I'd keep quiet about watching that tripe!

And how do I know about the Parlee snub? I was there. Don't give me some BS about how Parlee's method of constructing his mass-produced carbon frame was different than Crumpton's method of producing his own mass-produced carbon frame. That's just a cop-out. Parlee's mass-produced frame was made in Asia. Crumpton's mass produced frame was made in Italy. This same sheet has been going on for ages. In the deep south, landlords used to discriminate against blacks by making up all sorts of non-sense. It was difficult in the 60s, 70s, even today in some parts for blacks, hispanics, and other minorities to be able to rent when they are discriminated on the basis of race, but the landlord would claim another excuse.
The way a frame is constructed is important in deciding if it is truly handmade or not. Monocoque is far less skills intensive a wrapped joint constructed frame. The other thing you're ignoring is the criteria of volume. Parlee may be relatively small compared to Trek etc but they are probably one of the largest producers at NAHMBS. Crumpton is far smaller being one guy, so is far from being out of step with being what NAHMBS is about.

You seem to have an almost pathological inability to see degrees of anything. It has to be wrong or right, patriotism is xenophobia or racism. You also shoot yourself in the foot by not researching your facts thoroughly. Why not try debating rationally rather than pontificating inanely? Then we might actually take you seriously.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners.

Especially when you bear in mind that when Ford needed a car that did go round corners properly so they could beat Ferrari they came to the UK.
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spartan
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by spartan

the year is 2012 NOT 1966.

check out the lap times from the green hell. viper/corvettes/camaro/cadillac. funny similiar situation in road bike technology. cervelo/cannondale/specialized/trek vs the old euro brands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N% ... _lap_times




ultimobici wrote:
stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners.

Especially when you bear in mind that when Ford needed a car that did go round corners properly so they could beat Ferrari they came to the UK.
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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

spartan wrote:the year is 2012 NOT 1966.

check out the lap times from the green hell. viper/corvettes/camaro/cadillac. funny similiar situation in road bike technology. cervelo/cannondale/specialized/trek vs the old euro brands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N% ... _lap_times" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




ultimobici wrote:
stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners.

Especially when you bear in mind that when Ford needed a car that did go round corners properly so they could beat Ferrari they came to the UK.
Image
Flying laps of the Nurburgring are less the measure of excellence of the car and more the skill of the driver.

Name one international race won by an american car. It isn't possible because it hasn't happened on a track with corners other than banked left handers!

Le Mans - Never
Monza - Never
Monaco - Never
Silverstone - Never
Spa - Never
Magny Cours - Never
Etc etc...
:wink:

gumgardner
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by gumgardner

Quickdraw wrote:
stephen@fibre-lyte wrote: It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners. Does that make those opinions Xenophobic?

That made me laugh! I think that this opinion is held by many on this side of the pond too, so it is not just a question of perspective. The reputation is certainly deserved based upon the US-made muscle cars of the 60's and 70's. I'm not sure we've (i.e. Americans and the American car industry) done too much to change that, especially compared to what comes out of Europe, but some of the higher end American cars probably hold up better by comparison than they used to. That sort of dovetails well with something I think you said earlier; namely that once you get such a reputation it can be difficult to change the public's perception.


Many of the US 'street' muscle cars are very torquey and fast. Just don't expect them to turn well. That's typically where they'll lose time to the European counterpart.

Mackers
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by Mackers

I can remember Penske winning an F1 race in the 70s, and I'm not even into racing cars.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Mackers wrote:I can remember Penske winning an F1 race in the 70s, and I'm not even into racing cars.

I stand corrected.

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Fourthbook
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by Fourthbook

It appears I inadvertently opened the proverbial 'can-of-worms' with my original posting. Sorry, given the results. (I think Prendrefeu saw it coming early on.) I wasn't particularly interested in the VeloNews take on the NAHBS, nor the well-known fact that most of the high-end frames are now made in huge Asian factories. Instead, what intriqued me is the nature of that mass-production which often times appears to be very labor and skill-intensive, aka 'hand-made'. Despite the large volume setting, the frames we so often covet are still made one at a time by skilled craftsmen working with apparent pride/devotion as seen firsthand by Elviento during his Falco project (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94417). I find his observations and experiences enlightening and devoid of some of the stereotypes and presumptions that plague those of us who have not had direct personal contact or insight into that production process and its implications.

So, IMHO this thread ran its course pages ago. Perhaps the moderators should shut it off, if possible...
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Illuminate
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by Illuminate

blantonator wrote:Lets be clear, it's not racist to support the US economy, artisan bike builders, bike builders making an actual living wage and a country with environmental regulations.


This is along the lines of my thinking too. I would rather pay extra and look after my fellow kinsmen and to keep them in a job.

Looking at the unemployment rates across Europe (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/ta ... 1&plugin=1) and for other countries, perhaps the notion of outsourcing for cheaper labour to reduce production costs for the benefit of the consumer is a concept marketed by business executives to sanitise the laying off millions of blue collar workers for the sake of a performance bonus pay check.

Over and out.
I

shokhead
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by shokhead

Illuminate wrote:
blantonator wrote:Lets be clear, it's not racist to support the US economy, artisan bike builders, bike builders making an actual living wage and a country with environmental regulations.


This is along the lines of my thinking too. I would rather pay extra and look after my fellow kinsmen and to keep them in a job.

Looking at the unemployment rates across Europe (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/ta ... 1&plugin=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and for other countries, perhaps the notion of outsourcing for cheaper labour to reduce production costs for the benefit of the consumer is a concept marketed by business executives to sanitise the laying off millions of blue collar workers for the sake of a performance bonus pay check.

Over and out.
I


Benefit of the consumer? Where in the heck did you get that from? Benefits are not in our pockets.

rruff
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by rruff

shokhead wrote:Benefit of the consumer? Where in the heck did you get that from? Benefits are not in our pockets.


Well... the consumers do get slightly cheaper products. Very slight in most cases... but it is enough for the companies to both increase profits and lower the price a bit, so it happens with great regularity.

I don't want to get too deep into globalization and the effect it has had on many (most?) developed countries... but let's just say I'm starting to believe in global conspiracies.

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

Fourthbook wrote:It appears I inadvertently opened the proverbial 'can-of-worms' with my original posting. Sorry, given the results. (I think Prendrefeu saw it coming early on.)
So, IMHO this thread ran its course pages ago. Perhaps the moderators should shut it off, if possible...


Oh hush now, I'm just about to pop open another bag. :popcorn:

They just started referencing cars. I'm waiting until they reference WWII, then it'll get exciting! :lol:
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tranzformer
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by tranzformer

ultimobici wrote:
Name one international race won by an american car. It isn't possible because it hasn't happened on a track with corners other than banked left handers!

Le Mans - Never
Monza - Never
Monaco - Never
Silverstone - Never
Spa - Never
Magny Cours - Never
Etc etc...
:wink:



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ticou
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by ticou

I had my frame made in N.Italy. If the actual, brazin' torch in hand framebuilder had been from China, I wouldn't care a hoot. Many things are well made via mass production, incl starter bikes. If you want to get to Carnegie hall, practice man, practice, which means 3-4 years before 'is brazin' torch became pro, and sold as pro.

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