Origin Myth: Asian mass production vs. small, handmade shops

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bones
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:38 am

by bones

shokhead wrote:
blantonator wrote:Anyone who thinks Chinese QC is as good as something built in the USA or Europe is dreaming. The only reason bikes are made in China is to maximize corporate profits, thanks to lopsided trade agreements, near slave labor costs, and zero environmental regulations.


To us in the good old civilized U S of A it is near slave labor I guess. To them, they couldn't be more thankful for the work. Either look at it for our side of the world eyes or their eyes.




Its appalling to even equate Made-in-China labor to slave labor. I would suggest a history class to understand what slavery was.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

bones wrote:
lechat wrote:Chinese Technology and artisanship was state of the art when Romulus and Remus were still sucking on the teat of that she wolf.



That isn't funny.

Please explain. Or did you just not understand the quoted sentence?

ticou
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by ticou

Of course certain country's are known for certain thangs. I go to a fast foodish Chinese restaurant, and in an ocd way, I order the same dish- the food has been identical for 15 years, and it's ok, so if I was on a starter race bike, something well marketed with nice graphics from China would do. It takes 3-4 years to train to be a frame builder who can thence sell his or her wares on the open market. If your an apprentice to Dario Pegoretti, and you ain't learning on the job, your out. They are not 'glorified plumbers'.

Ste_S
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by Ste_S

The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.

bones
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:38 am

by bones

Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.



Yes, but to your everyday Joe shopping for bike stuff, and this is evidenced by the numerous derogatory remarks made about inferior Chinese labor and inferior Chinese products... The REAL difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't only the exclusivity of the brand name - it is the fact that one is made by an Asian person and the other made by a white man.

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CharlesM
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by CharlesM

Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.



You need to put the word "some" in front of "mass" and "artisan"...

shokhead
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Location: So Cal

by shokhead

Don't think any of us would know the difference from mass and artisan produced frames with your eyes shut and riding.{Come on now, you know what I mean!}

bones
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by bones

CharlesM wrote:
Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.



You need to put the word "some" in front of "mass" and "artisan"...



The word "overwhelmingly" would be more accurate. I have a problem with NAHBS too. Like the Velonews writer, like a very small minority here who see the reality of NAHBS hidden xenophobia and yes, racism at this show. And it falls on the show promoter, Don Walker. I am going to call it like it is.

At this year's NAHBS, something smells very rotten. Parlee has one frame in his lineup which is mass-produced in Asia. Crumpton has one frame in his line which is mass-produced in Italy. Of course, both would have been allowed to display their custom frames. However, Parlee was told not to display his mass-produced Asian frame at NAHBS and was given no legitimate reason why. Crumpton was allowed to display his mass-produced Italian frame at NAHBS. When asked about this at the show, Walker stated that he wasn't going to allow any mass-produced "Chinese crap" at his show. Period. We were stunned. This is from the same man who posted on a forum years ago that he was organizing a competition between a American framebuilder vs. a Chinese factory worker at NAHBS to show everybody how much superior American framebuilders are. That side-show competition never came to fruition.

No one wants to admit it. There is bigotry and ignorance in the cycling industry. At all levels. Even at NAHBS.

bikewithnoname
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by bikewithnoname

bones, you need to get some balance into your world view dude. All you seem to do is troll this site these days…
"We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities." Oscar Wilde

Pegoretti Responsorium, Parlee Z5i, Donhou Commuter, 1946 MacLeans Featherweight L'Eroica!, 2x MTB 'dales

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

bones wrote:
CharlesM wrote:
Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.



You need to put the word "some" in front of "mass" and "artisan"...



The word "overwhelmingly" would be more accurate. I have a problem with NAHBS too. Like the Velonews writer, like a very small minority here who see the reality of NAHBS hidden xenophobia and yes, racism at this show. And it falls on the show promoter, Don Walker. I am going to call it like it is.

At this year's NAHBS, something smells very rotten. Parlee has one frame in his lineup which is mass-produced in Asia. Crumpton has one frame in his line which is mass-produced in Italy. Of course, both would have been allowed to display their custom frames. However, Parlee was told not to display his mass-produced Asian frame at NAHBS and was given no legitimate reason why. Crumpton was allowed to display his mass-produced Italian frame at NAHBS. When asked about this at the show, Walker stated that he wasn't going to allow any mass-produced "Chinese crap" at his show. Period. We were stunned. This is from the same man who posted on a forum years ago that he was organizing a competition between a American framebuilder vs. a Chinese factory worker at NAHBS to show everybody how much superior American framebuilders are. That side-show competition never came to fruition.

No one wants to admit it. There is bigotry and ignorance in the cycling industry. At all levels. Even at NAHBS.
And you know this how? Or are you making it up?

The show is the North American Handmade Bicycle Show, it is bound to be Americentric. But the other issue is that the vast majority of Chinese manufacturers are not about building to a quality first and a price second, rather they are about building to a cost first and pure craftsmanship is not a consideration. That's not to say quality is low, far from it. The integrity of a Giant frame is beyond reproach. As for the Parlee/Crumpton issue, I wonder if the problem with Parlee's bike was not where it was made but how it was made. The Z5 is a monocoque so no different to a Trek, Specialized or Giant, whereas the Corsa Team is still a tube to tube construction. Effectively the Corsa Team is closer to a regular Crumpton that the Z5 can ever how to be to a Parlee.

The fact that the Best In Show & the President's Choice went to an Asian builder torpedoes your argument that the show is racist.

Basically you need two things, to ride your bike more and most importantly get laid man!

Zigmeister
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by Zigmeister

Valbrona wrote:What? Does Mr Fretz think that we're stupid? Has he, or the OP for that matter, only just worked out that the vast majority of carbon frames are made by a handful of factories in China and Taiwan?

Yawn.



No, not at WW forum! But, you would be surprised how clueless the vast majority of people are regarding many things, carbon bike manufacturing with big brands is no different.

I work in IT for a living. People in general are so clueless, even fundamentally about products/technologies they use everyday, nonetheless, some involved or in depth understanding of how the product works and performs how it does.

blantonator
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by blantonator

Lets be clear, it's not racist to support the US economy, artisan bike builders, bike builders making an actual living wage and a country with environmental regulations.

bones
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:38 am

by bones

ultimobici wrote:
bones wrote:
CharlesM wrote:
Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.



You need to put the word "some" in front of "mass" and "artisan"...



The word "overwhelmingly" would be more accurate. I have a problem with NAHBS too. Like the Velonews writer, like a very small minority here who see the reality of NAHBS hidden xenophobia and yes, racism at this show. And it falls on the show promoter, Don Walker. I am going to call it like it is.

At this year's NAHBS, something smells very rotten. Parlee has one frame in his lineup which is mass-produced in Asia. Crumpton has one frame in his line which is mass-produced in Italy. Of course, both would have been allowed to display their custom frames. However, Parlee was told not to display his mass-produced Asian frame at NAHBS and was given no legitimate reason why. Crumpton was allowed to display his mass-produced Italian frame at NAHBS. When asked about this at the show, Walker stated that he wasn't going to allow any mass-produced "Chinese crap" at his show. Period. We were stunned. This is from the same man who posted on a forum years ago that he was organizing a competition between a American framebuilder vs. a Chinese factory worker at NAHBS to show everybody how much superior American framebuilders are. That side-show competition never came to fruition.

No one wants to admit it. There is bigotry and ignorance in the cycling industry. At all levels. Even at NAHBS.
And you know this how? Or are you making it up?

The show is the North American Handmade Bicycle Show, it is bound to be Americentric. But the other issue is that the vast majority of Chinese manufacturers are not about building to a quality first and a price second, rather they are about building to a cost first and pure craftsmanship is not a consideration. That's not to say quality is low, far from it. The integrity of a Giant frame is beyond reproach. As for the Parlee/Crumpton issue, I wonder if the problem with Parlee's bike was not where it was made but how it was made. The Z5 is a monocoque so no different to a Trek, Specialized or Giant, whereas the Corsa Team is still a tube to tube construction. Effectively the Corsa Team is closer to a regular Crumpton that the Z5 can ever how to be to a Parlee.

The fact that the Best In Show & the President's Choice went to an Asian builder torpedoes your argument that the show is racist.

Basically you need two things, to ride your bike more and most importantly get laid man!



I once saw an episode on the Jerry Springer show where the head of the KKK claimed to have black friends. So no. The fact that the Best in Show award this year went to an Asian builder does not mean jack.

And how do I know about the Parlee snub? I was there. Don't give me some BS about how Parlee's method of constructing his mass-produced carbon frame was different than Crumpton's method of producing his own mass-produced carbon frame. That's just a cop-out. Parlee's mass-produced frame was made in Asia. Crumpton's mass produced frame was made in Italy. This same sheet has been going on for ages. In the deep south, landlords used to discriminate against blacks by making up all sorts of non-sense. It was difficult in the 60s, 70s, even today in some parts for blacks, hispanics, and other minorities to be able to rent when they are discriminated on the basis of race, but the landlord would claim another excuse.

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stephen@fibre-lyte
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by stephen@fibre-lyte

"I once saw an episode of Jerry Springer......" has really just mothballed your entire argument as far as I'm concerned. What is your basis for making such insulting claims against a show organiser? Do you know him personally? Do you know the exact reasons why Crumptons frame was allowed or are you hypothesising?

As I've mentioned before, there are a lot of good frames coming out of the far east. However, there is also a lot of reputed rubbish as well. I think that we've been subject to cheap imports from the far east for years and I know that when I was a kid, the mark 'made in Hong Kong' suggested that it was cheap and poor quality. Times have changed somewhat but opinions haven't. It's very far from xenophobia or racism, it's just matter of fact based on history that hasn't been updated. It takes a lot for people to change their minds but most eventually do. Suggesting that people are racist because of their opinion of products that come from that country is ridiculous. It's a commonly held opinion in the UK that US cars are brilliant in a straight line but not a patch on european cars for going round corners. Does that make those opinions Xenophobic?

Do you think its about time that we started talking about the differences between bikes instead of name calling?

Ste_S wrote:The real difference between mass and artisan produced frames isn't in the quality of the frame - it's in the exclusivity of the brand name.


If you've seen various frames and the way they're constructed from the inside out you'd most likely revise that statement.

rruff
Shop Owner
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Location: Alto, NM

by rruff

bones wrote:I once saw an episode on the Jerry Springer show...


Now I know where you are coming from... trying to turn this forum into something similar?

This a bicycling site. Please take your inane racist BS somewhere else.

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