Electronic Campy or Shimano

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bikerneil
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:06 pm
Location: Carlsbad, CA - USA

by bikerneil

I am in the process of buying a new Pinarello Dogma 2, and I am sure I want electronic groupset, but not sure whether it will be Campy or Shimano. I know that both are fine, but will take any feedback from other members.

I have heard that the 11 speed Campy may be more temperamental - have others seen this to be the case? I want to install it, and then ride it and forget it. All bikes to date have been Shimano Dura Ace.

It's my dream bike, so money is not in the equation (this time).

Thx.

silvercivic27
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:54 am

by silvercivic27

Keep it Italian. EPS.

Permon
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am

by Permon

+1. Please no Shitmano on Pina!

Unbrokenchain
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:09 pm

by Unbrokenchain

No Teriyaki on Spaghetti!!

DaveS
Posts: 2529
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

by DaveS

Campy electronic is not readily available yet, so you won't be getting a lot of first-hand reports on it. Reports of Campy 11 being more difficult to adjust are related to the mechanical system and cable friction issues, and that would not be relevant to the electronic group with no shift cables.

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HammerTime2
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed

by HammerTime2

Unbrokenchain wrote:No Teriyaki on Spaghetti!!

Yes, Sphagetti was from China*, and finished in Italy.

* to include Taiwan

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js
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:57 pm
Location: Canada

by js

Having had some pretty good time playing with both, I think I'd personally prefer Campag... and that's coming from a SRAM guy.

For me the biggest issue is the 'button' function of Shimano versus an actual lever moving across on Campag. There are just so many places where that extra tactile feedback would be valuable that I can't think of why Shimano haven't seen that too.

However, the comments on Campag being harder to set up could easily be related to the EPS system as well. Unlike Shimano's exact process of '4 mini-shifts down from noise', the Campag set-up relies on the mechanic perfectly centering the 2nd smallest & 2nd largest cogs... and that needs to be (or at least should be) reset every time you switch cassette ratios.

I understand why Campag has to have the reset for different ratios (as they change the spacing of cogs for these different cassettes), but why they would depend on a human set-up process is beyond me.

Honestly, think about how many times you've had your bike 'perfectly tuned' by a shop or friend, only to have a bit of noise or slow shifting when you're riding? Surely that's not what the promise of EPS should be all about.

Frankie13
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: USA

by Frankie13

HammerTime2 wrote:
Unbrokenchain wrote:No Teriyaki on Spaghetti!!

Yes, Sphagetti was from China*, and finished in Italy.

* to include Taiwan


Please let's not start this again, it is really getting old now!!

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dgasmd
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:10 am
Location: South Florida

by dgasmd

This my honest response coming from a guy that will stop riding before switching to Chitmano: Get Di2. You are used to Chitmano, why bother getting into a completely new set up and completely different group set, not to mention wheel changes and such. Besides, Di2 is available now vs months before you can get your hands on EPS. :noidea:

c50jim
Posts: 977
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:42 am
Location: Calgary

by c50jim

I'd ridden Campy exclusively from 1995 to 2010. I had seen Shimano drive Suntour out of the MTB market and wanted to do my little bit to keep some competition in the market. I also came to really like the fact that the lever itself didn't move. That had always made me nervous going down switchbacks with STI.

However, I was in Italy to do the Maratona in 2010. We'd arranged rental bikes with someone we'd used before but they were awful. So, the only bike almost my size in the Corvara area was a Dogma with Di2. Slightly used demo at a good price so I bought it. I did about 10 km the day before the Maratona to make sure it was set up properly then went for a hike and rode the Maratona. It worked great and I was almost ready to keep the bike, perhaps as the main bike in my fleet, when I got home. Unfortunately, I crashed the next day, spent 18 days in hospital in Bolzano and 10 months off the bike. Although the bike survived and I rode once I was back on the bike, I just couldn't help thinking about the crash any time I rode that Dogma so I sold it cheap.

What did I think of Di2? Great. And those Shimano carbon/al DA clinchers were a great ride and light too. I'm trying to get on the list for an EPS kit when it becomes available (maybe my last bike since I'm getting on in years) but it might mean a long wait. OEM bikes will be available far sooner. Frankly, if you can get a Dogma with Di2 and you want a Dogma, and you've been riding Shimano for years, I'd say buy the Di2. It works well on that frame - mine did and they seem to work for Sky -but don't expect it to be a weenie. Mine was something like 17.5 pounds in a 56.

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tommasini
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by tommasini

If you are still at the decsion stage - I'd contact Shimano directly and ask whether 2012 10 speed Di2 will have an upgrade feature for when they go to 11 speed next year. Otherwise if you want that "dream" bike to be the latest/greatest then you may only get that sensation until this July (the 2012 Tour de France) or around September (Eurobike and Interbike).

I'm a Campy guy so there's no doubt about what I'd get (and besides, the lever features sound most likeable) but since you are torn between Shimano vs Campagnolo, I'd sit tight - wait for EPS to be out to where you can see it and touch it first hand - possibly getting a demo ride for yourself. There are very few outside the press that have touched it first hand (but do a search here for the several EPS strings - as several guys here have worked and ridden it).

aermet
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:37 am

by aermet

I've been on Di2 for 2 years now and spent some time on an eps bike yesterday.

My impressions:

The components look like works of art. The shape of the shift lever/hoods, the shape and construction of the rear der, the profound use of flawless carbon fiber and the resultant shape of the rear der body puts the eps on another level entirely from an aesthetic perspective when compared to Di2.

I really liked the shape of the hoods. The texture of the hood covers are very nice and the shape felt great in the hands. I have always preferred the shape of the campy brake levers and this was no exception. Beautiful, smooth carbon levers, the best in the business- what else can I say about that?

Based on reports I had read, I expected a much more mechanical feel to the shifts than I experienced. I've always felt that Di2 has always lacked in the "click" and tactile feel that lets you know you are requesting a shift and I think the eps could have gone a couple of steps higher in that department. Don't expect a huge difference in the click that you'll feel compared to the Di2, it's still not firm enough in my opinion. If you could imagine sram Red as the benchmark as a 10 on a scale of a 1-10, and Di2 as perhaps a 2.5 (with 1 being no indexing at all), then eps might be a 3.5 or 4 on that scale. Still not quite enough feel in my opinion.

Now regards to the actual placement of the button/lever themselves- the lever is in the usual place and feels classic campy. The thumb button felt like it was in just the right place and the downward motion of the button moved in a very nice arc with plenty of travel. Shape of both felt as good as it could feel meaning I don't know if I would change a thing if I could.

If you think the front der on Di2 sounds "good", well, the eps solenoid motor makes an even more pronounced "terminator" sound. Lounder, and much more noticeable if you can imagine that. You are reminded with every shift of the front der exactly what it is you are riding.

Shifting was spot on and perfect with nary a hiccup. Just as promised, holding either shift button depressed resulted in multiple shifts. I expected actually a much more rapid sweep across the entire cogset after the slight delay after button press, but in hindsight, it's probably a good thing that it doesn't sweep across too many cogs too quickly. Moving across too many cogs too quickly could make it difficult to modulate and time the release of the shifter quickly enough to prevent a resultant too tall or too low a gear thus requiring further shifting to find the desired cog. I think with the current settings and enough time, one might be able to develop a feel as to just how long to keep shifter depressed to shift 4 or 5 or how ever many cogs at a time and be spot on.

The actual exactness of each rear shift was flawless. Not much more to say about that, perfect means perfect.

Front shifting was also about as good as it gets. I could not tell a difference in the shift quality going from small to big ring and vice versa when compared to front shifting on my Di2. Shifts were instant and with no hesitation or skipping on the ramps. That's saying something as my experience with the front shifting on my Di2 is about as close to perfection as I've ever ridden.
Trim on front der was automatic and reacted in much the same way as the Di2 front der. I'm fairly averse to cross chaining as a habit on my own bikes but I did ride the eps cross chained briefly and paid attention to the front der trim and it behaved just as one might hope-perfectly adjusting trim to prevent chain rub on the inside or outside of the front der cage.

If eps were available separately at this moment, would I ditch my Di2 to buy eps? Well, if it was within 20% of the price, I would. I'm not positive with regards to retail price, but I was told the group would be $6000 or thereabouts. That would stop me dead in my purchase tracks.

I'm one who has no issue with waiting for pricing on the newest products to come down to earth. My impression of buyers of high end recent campy product want something different as well as functional. You just can't compare the looks of mechanical super record to dura ace much less eps to Di2.

EPS makes Di2 look almost cheap and industrial next to eps. Satin (dull) grey aluminum versus shiny carbon fiber.

It would be unfair and difficult to describe Di2 as a corvette and the EPS a Ferrair 599 with contrast glove stitching on the seats, alcantara inserts and carbon adorning the dash surfaces.

Both ultimately do the same thing and in almost identical fashion. It's just that one makes you stare in awe and wonder and with admiration. At the risk of sounding too cliche, it's sexy. Oops, then you have to pay......

BTW, the shop owner whose bike I rode yesterday has a couple of the new Dogmas for sale with the eps. If you're interested, PM me and I'll get you his contact info.

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HammerTime2
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed

by HammerTime2

aermet wrote:I think with the current settings and enough time, one might be able to develop a feel as to just how long to keep shifter depressed to shift 4 or 5 or how ever many cogs at a time and be spot on.
You mean, kind of like developing a feel for how far to move a friction shifting lever to shift a given number of cogs? Except perhaps that EPS has an advantage if you only want to shift one cog (just a short click) vs. a less clear cut analog move for a one cog shift on a friction shifter (unless it is to the extreme cog). And except for shifting to the extreme cog on friction shifting which can quickly be done by slamming the lever all the way.

I know this is supposed to be an English language only forum, but
La plus ça change, la plus la c'est la même* chose

* except that now, you can shift from the hoods, and pay several thousand extra dollars for the privilege of doing so

duz10s
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:17 pm
Location: Melbourne,Australia

by duz10s

aermet wrote:I've been on Di2 for 2 years now and spent some time on an eps bike yesterday.

My impressions:

The components look like works of art. The shape of the shift lever/hoods, the shape and construction of the rear der, the profound use of flawless carbon fiber and the resultant shape of the rear der body puts the eps on another level entirely from an aesthetic perspective when compared to Di2.

I really liked the shape of the hoods. The texture of the hood covers are very nice and the shape felt great in the hands. I have always preferred the shape of the campy brake levers and this was no exception. Beautiful, smooth carbon levers, the best in the business- what else can I say about that?

Based on reports I had read, I expected a much more mechanical feel to the shifts than I experienced. I've always felt that Di2 has always lacked in the "click" and tactile feel that lets you know you are requesting a shift and I think the eps could have gone a couple of steps higher in that department. Don't expect a huge difference in the click that you'll feel compared to the Di2, it's still not firm enough in my opinion. If you could imagine sram Red as the benchmark as a 10 on a scale of a 1-10, and Di2 as perhaps a 2.5 (with 1 being no indexing at all), then eps might be a 3.5 or 4 on that scale. Still not quite enough feel in my opinion.

Now regards to the actual placement of the button/lever themselves- the lever is in the usual place and feels classic campy. The thumb button felt like it was in just the right place and the downward motion of the button moved in a very nice arc with plenty of travel. Shape of both felt as good as it could feel meaning I don't know if I would change a thing if I could.

If you think the front der on Di2 sounds "good", well, the eps solenoid motor makes an even more pronounced "terminator" sound. Lounder, and much more noticeable if you can imagine that. You are reminded with every shift of the front der exactly what it is you are riding.

Shifting was spot on and perfect with nary a hiccup. Just as promised, holding either shift button depressed resulted in multiple shifts. I expected actually a much more rapid sweep across the entire cogset after the slight delay after button press, but in hindsight, it's probably a good thing that it doesn't sweep across too many cogs too quickly. Moving across too many cogs too quickly could make it difficult to modulate and time the release of the shifter quickly enough to prevent a resultant too tall or too low a gear thus requiring further shifting to find the desired cog. I think with the current settings and enough time, one might be able to develop a feel as to just how long to keep shifter depressed to shift 4 or 5 or how ever many cogs at a time and be spot on.

The actual exactness of each rear shift was flawless. Not much more to say about that, perfect means perfect.

Front shifting was also about as good as it gets. I could not tell a difference in the shift quality going from small to big ring and vice versa when compared to front shifting on my Di2. Shifts were instant and with no hesitation or skipping on the ramps. That's saying something as my experience with the front shifting on my Di2 is about as close to perfection as I've ever ridden.
Trim on front der was automatic and reacted in much the same way as the Di2 front der. I'm fairly averse to cross chaining as a habit on my own bikes but I did ride the eps cross chained briefly and paid attention to the front der trim and it behaved just as one might hope-perfectly adjusting trim to prevent chain rub on the inside or outside of the front der cage.

If eps were available separately at this moment, would I ditch my Di2 to buy eps? Well, if it was within 20% of the price, I would. I'm not positive with regards to retail price, but I was told the group would be $6000 or thereabouts. That would stop me dead in my purchase tracks.

I'm one who has no issue with waiting for pricing on the newest products to come down to earth. My impression of buyers of high end recent campy product want something different as well as functional. You just can't compare the looks of mechanical super record to dura ace much less eps to Di2.

EPS makes Di2 look almost cheap and industrial next to eps. Satin (dull) grey aluminum versus shiny carbon fiber.

It would be unfair and difficult to describe Di2 as a corvette and the EPS a Ferrair 599 with contrast glove stitching on the seats, alcantara inserts and carbon adorning the dash surfaces.

Both ultimately do the same thing and in almost identical fashion. It's just that one makes you stare in awe and wonder and with admiration. At the risk of sounding too cliche, it's sexy. Oops, then you have to pay......

BTW, the shop owner whose bike I rode yesterday has a couple of the new Dogmas for sale with the eps. If you're interested, PM me and I'll get you his contact info.


great report, us Italians sure know how to make something sexy
2015 RCA with Di2

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

bikerneil wrote:Not sure whether it will be Campy or Shimano.


In the end, it doesn't matter which you choose and you'll be happy riding.
Ride whatever feels fine for you, your hands, your interests in human/machine interface.
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

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