105 Di2 and Dura-Ace Parts Swap

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Attermann
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:04 pm
Location: Denmark

by Attermann

BikeTyson wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:58 pm
I've been running the Dura-Ace cage on my Ultegra RD for just over a year now with zero issues. I bought the DA cage online so I used the Ultegra seal and spring. They're a direct swap. Aftermarket OSPWs don't even have separate cages for DA or Ultegra. It's one cage because they're the same. The same cage will fit both Ultegra and DA. Like sheeshKbob said above, make sure you spin the cage before putting the locking screw in.

https://ceramicspeed.com/products/ospw- ... -9250-8150

https://novatoride.com/en/products/ccd- ... e-12-speed
They are the same, but there is a different seal that comes with the ceramic speed ospw, that you need to use with dura ace.

K4m1k4z3
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:33 pm

by K4m1k4z3

sheeshKbob wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:08 pm
just in case, did you install it like in the video? If so, then it's incomplete/wrong. I had the same problem first time doing it, but after 2 -3 reinstall (pita to get the seal to stay in place), i realized that the seal isn't the problem : you need to put the spring into tension. So when you install the duraace cage, there will be a slight tension because of the spring, but unlike in the video, your need to turn the cage (put spring into tension) like 1/2 turn or 1 turn past the notch (don't remember exactly), then you can lock it with the screw.
I don't understand how installing it with the spring could change anything compared to installing it without one. The axle on my DA cage is shorter than on Ultegra. Just look.

Bottom/left is DA = 24.8 mm
Top/right is Ultegra = 25.2 mm

The DA cage simply won't go far enough in (with a seal) for the slit at the end of the axle to line up with the T10 torx fixing bolt.
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Ritxis
Posts: 1167
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by Ritxis

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 8:25 am
sheeshKbob wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:08 pm
just in case, did you install it like in the video? If so, then it's incomplete/wrong. I had the same problem first time doing it, but after 2 -3 reinstall (pita to get the seal to stay in place), i realized that the seal isn't the problem : you need to put the spring into tension. So when you install the duraace cage, there will be a slight tension because of the spring, but unlike in the video, your need to turn the cage (put spring into tension) like 1/2 turn or 1 turn past the notch (don't remember exactly), then you can lock it with the screw.
I don't understand how installing it with the spring could change anything compared to installing it without one. The axle on my DA cage is shorter than on Ultegra. Just look.

Bottom/left is DA = 24.8 mm
Top/right is Ultegra = 25.2 mm

The DA cage simply won't go far enough in (with a seal) for the slit at the end of the axle to line up with the T10 torx fixing bolt.
The Dura-ace/Ultegra cages are compatible.....I once mounted an R9100 on an R8000 rear derailleur and I have mounted that same R9100 on an Ultegra 12 R8150

Paweln1983
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:19 pm

by Paweln1983

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 8:25 am
sheeshKbob wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:08 pm
just in case, did you install it like in the video? If so, then it's incomplete/wrong. I had the same problem first time doing it, but after 2 -3 reinstall (pita to get the seal to stay in place), i realized that the seal isn't the problem : you need to put the spring into tension. So when you install the duraace cage, there will be a slight tension because of the spring, but unlike in the video, your need to turn the cage (put spring into tension) like 1/2 turn or 1 turn past the notch (don't remember exactly), then you can lock it with the screw.
I don't understand how installing it with the spring could change anything compared to installing it without one. The axle on my DA cage is shorter than on Ultegra. Just look.

Bottom/left is DA = 24.8 mm
Top/right is Ultegra = 25.2 mm

The DA cage simply won't go far enough in (with a seal) for the slit at the end of the axle to line up with the T10 torx fixing bolt.
You are correct.
Although you can put Dura Ace R9250, or even Dura Ace R9150 cage on Ultegra R8150 body, the are not a direct swap. The P axle on Dura Ace is is slightly different (the retaining notch to be exact) This is why there is an excessive friction when the cage is installed with the washer. Of course anything will move with enough force, so adding a spring and preloading it will allow for cage to spring back, but something will give at some point.

Pulley wheels on Dura Ace are narrower, so when swapping the cage from Ultegra to Dura-Ace you are changing the position of the guide pulley, hence the need for indexing, or adjusting the limit screws.

Physically 12 speed RD's are the first where pretty much every component is different in-between the 105, Ultegra and DA. 11s on the other hand Ultegra R8050 SS and DA R9150 were pretty much the same (measurement wise)

cleanneon98
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:26 pm

by cleanneon98

The guy in that video didn't tension the spring when he installed the DA cage on the Ultegra derailleur, hence it feels like it's binding. It also took me 2-3 tries to realize I didn't tension the spring before locking everything together but it works fine

https://youtu.be/jmSZL-GE2a8?si=zTzZQRgkG1xZLaVD
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K4m1k4z3
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:33 pm

by K4m1k4z3

cleanneon98 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm
The guy in that video didn't tension the spring when he installed the DA cage on the Ultegra derailleur, hence it feels like it's binding. It also took me 2-3 tries to realize I didn't tension the spring before locking everything together but it works fine

https://youtu.be/jmSZL-GE2a8?si=zTzZQRgkG1xZLaVD
It's not "it feels like it's binding." But rather "IT IS BINDING."
Putting preload on the spring is just masking the binding effect. There is no binding with the original Ultegra cage and no spring.
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cleanneon98
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:26 pm

by cleanneon98

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:54 pm
cleanneon98 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm
The guy in that video didn't tension the spring when he installed the DA cage on the Ultegra derailleur, hence it feels like it's binding. It also took me 2-3 tries to realize I didn't tension the spring before locking everything together but it works fine

https://youtu.be/jmSZL-GE2a8?si=zTzZQRgkG1xZLaVD
It's not "it feels like it's binding." But rather "IT IS BINDING."
Putting preload on the spring is just masking the binding effect. There is no binding with the original Ultegra cage and no spring.
There's a difference between having no spring and having the spring and not having it tensioned. This is a non-issue, I guess in addition to fingering people's fork gaps tonight I'll have to play with their cages too
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OtterSpace
Posts: 590
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Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:54 pm
It's not "it feels like it's binding." But rather "IT IS BINDING."
Putting preload on the spring is just masking the binding effect. There is no binding with the original Ultegra cage and no spring.
Again I see the same extra seal friction on fully stock Dura-Ace RD-R9100.

I'm curious if you see the same behavior on Dura-Ace cage and body without spring that you are seeing on Dura-Ace cage and Ultegra body.

If I had RD-R9250 on hand I'd test myself but I dont have access to one.

sheeshKbob
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 5:14 pm

by sheeshKbob

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:54 pm
cleanneon98 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:35 pm
The guy in that video didn't tension the spring when he installed the DA cage on the Ultegra derailleur, hence it feels like it's binding. It also took me 2-3 tries to realize I didn't tension the spring before locking everything together but it works fine

https://youtu.be/jmSZL-GE2a8?si=zTzZQRgkG1xZLaVD
It's not "it feels like it's binding." But rather "IT IS BINDING."
Putting preload on the spring is just masking the binding effect. There is no binding with the original Ultegra cage and no spring.
But have you tried installing like in the video (posted by cleanneon98) ? sure the 2 cages aren't EXACTLY the same, but the discrepancy shouldn't matter (at least from my and other members' experience). The lock screw went in without any problem, just like with the original Ultegra cage. Make sure that the seal is seated properly though (and you need the spring tension!)

MichaelK
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:50 pm
Location: UK

by MichaelK

Anybody running 54/40t on their front chainring with 105 Di2 RD and FD? Thinking about DA9200 or Carbon-Ti chainrings.

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howaboutme
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:01 pm
Location: Northern VA

by howaboutme

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:53 pm
All 12s Shimano Di2 road stuff is cross compatible. Except for very rare edge cases 11s stuff is not compatible with 12s.

The hoods inner molding might be a bit different for 105 due to not having top bottons that the higher stuff has even though the outer shape is the same.

In terms of value and performace for Shimano Di2 12s:
Shifters: 105 if you dont care about servo wave top bottons or satellite shifters, Ultegra if you do. Dura-Ace shifter clamps is an ok $/g upgrade. Dura-Ace is very expensive $/g.
Calipers: 105 or Dura-Ace. 105 is the same weight as Ultegra. Dura-Ace is very nearly the lightest caliper and 1 part.
Rotors: Galfer if you can. Ultegra level if sticking Shimano. Dura-Ace level is the same weight as Ulegra level but easier to clean the glossy inner finish. 105 level have no special features so I'd look elsewhere.
Crankset: All are heavier now due to recall mittigations. Ditch the crankarms if you can but the rings are the best shifting you will get on Shimano drivetrain. You can pair Shimano chainrings with carbon crankarms such as Red D1 with adapter spiders. Ultegra chainrings are like 5g heavier than Dura-Ace and both are hollow but I've never seen photos of them failing. 105 chainrings are solid and heavier.
FD: Ultegra. 105 is previous gen tech rebadged and Ultegra isnt much more expensive and is good $/g over 105. Dura-Ace is horrible $/g. If I had a 105 bike this is the first non wear part I'd upgrade.
RD: All have their place. Use a direct mount hanger if you can. 105 is great and has the longest cage. Ultegra is decent $/g upgrade at current market rates. Dura-Ace drops more weight but is fairly expensive still but better value $/g than shifters or FD. Some people sell their Dura-Ace cages after sidegrading to OSPW and you can use those cages on other Shimano RD for a decent $/g upgrade if you are not using a 11-36 cassette.
Chain: Dura-Ace level. Better longevity and decent $/g. If your bike comes with Ultegra level wear through it but if you have 105 level I'd just bin it.
Cassette: All have their place. 105 is the only Shimano option if you need 11-36 but you are losing HG+. Ultegra is a good balance and gets you HG+. Dura-Ace cassettes offer the best $/g in all Dura-Ace level components upgrades so should be the first Dura-Ace upgrade to consider after the chain.
Battery: There is currently only one battery compatible with 12s. Due to shifter design it must be wired to rim brake shifters and due to 105 design it cannot be wired to the 105 shifters except for performing firware updates.
Thanks to this post, I just replaced my 105 with the Ultegra FD and wow! Yes, I save a few grams but the shifting is so much faster and better! I use full synchro and the FD shifting is horrible in the 105 when you are not anticipating it like you would if you did it manually.

notsoenduro
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:18 am

by notsoenduro

Thanks for all the inputs.. I have just received the new Canyon Aeroad with 105 Di2. Not ridden yet, but have already ordered the Durace casette and chain to asisst with a tiny weight saving and from others feedback.. hopefully will improve shifting ever so slightly. I would have guessed Hyperglide Plus would require the derailleur upgrades also..but thats for another time!

Philbar72
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:47 am

by Philbar72

MichaelK wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2024 2:16 pm
Anybody running 54/40t on their front chainring with 105 Di2 RD and FD? Thinking about DA9200 or Carbon-Ti chainrings.
was going to ask the same question. i tried a 53/36 on my supersix evo. no dice. (was 11 speed crank but the mech as been designed for max 52 (the 105 12 speed)

i think the quick win is to run a Dura ace front mech as the rear is agnostic of this. my goal would be to run my 55 tooth tt ring (55/39) and i'm hoping thats acheivable.

notsoenduro
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:18 am

by notsoenduro

notsoenduro wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:58 am
Thanks for all the inputs.. I have just received the new Canyon Aeroad with 105 Di2. Not ridden yet, but have already ordered the Durace casette and chain to asisst with a tiny weight saving and from others feedback.. hopefully will improve shifting ever so slightly. I would have guessed Hyperglide Plus would require the derailleur upgrades also..but thats for another time!
I can't say the improvement was so significant but it does provide crica 110g of weight drop (DA Casette and Chain). The shifting is noticably nicer, especially moving to smaller cogs and also very noticable rigidity in the chain (that dreaded feeling that a chaindrop is about to happen, but it doesnt), but nothing like a full high end DA packages. I guess the shifters and derallierus are next.

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wltz
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:49 pm

by wltz

Philbar72 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:56 am
MichaelK wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2024 2:16 pm
Anybody running 54/40t on their front chainring with 105 Di2 RD and FD? Thinking about DA9200 or Carbon-Ti chainrings.
was going to ask the same question. i tried a 53/36 on my supersix evo. no dice. (was 11 speed crank but the mech as been designed for max 52 (the 105 12 speed)

i think the quick win is to run a Dura ace front mech as the rear is agnostic of this. my goal would be to run my 55 tooth tt ring (55/39) and i'm hoping thats acheivable.
105 Di2 FD is just the old Ultegra r8050 FD modded to take sd300 wires. R8050 in turn is functionally identical to r9150 FD, so if it cannot clear 54t on your frame, it's because of the frame.

Front shifting on 12s Di2 is the biggest improvement over 11s. I think 105 FD the first non-wear component one should upgrade. 12s Ultegra and DA FDs are functionally identical, DA is a touch lighter and 'unlocks' additional chainring combos in the E-tube app, but is poor value for money in my book. FWIW, I run 54/39 Rotor with r8150 FD on MY23 Propel, and it shifts great, with room to spare for at least 56t big ring if I was so inclined. I just cannot select my combo on the app and enjoy Shimano's visuals showing correct tooth count.

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