Where is new SRAM Red?

[repoman]

Why on Earth are companies still making electronic shifters exactly like cable actuated ones? The form of 'brifters' has been result of the functional requirements to pull on a cable. With hydraulic and electronic actuation, you don't need that. They could completely revolutionize the form of shifting units to be far better aerodynamically and ergonomically, but they still haven't seemed to realize this.

[LanceLegstrong]

I love the Dura Ace brakes but the Sram are for sure stronger.

With Sram I always use 1-2 fingers to brake (hard), with Shimano i am nervous when I do it.

I cannot understand why someboday would say the Shimano brakes have a tiny edge...

I 1 finger brake with Shimano with zero doubts. So maybe that’s it? Was that not a thing with SRAM?

Edit: I remember seeing an Instagram with somebody excited that they could 1-finger brake with the new SRAM and I remember thinking, “you couldn’t until now?!?!” Because I’ve always braked with 1 finger on Shimano.

From the drops I also break with one finger of course.
From the hoods the Sram is way ahead of Shimano...

Hmm, interesting. More modulation or more power? Or both? I 1-finger brake both in the drops and on the hoods with Shimano so I guess I never really questioned wanting more power.

[B0tt0mline]

I love the Dura Ace brakes but the Sram are for sure stronger.

With Sram I always use 1-2 fingers to brake (hard), with Shimano i am nervous when I do it.

I cannot understand why someboday would say the Shimano brakes have a tiny edge...

I 1 finger brake with Shimano with zero doubts. So maybe that’s it? Was that not a thing with SRAM?

Edit: I remember seeing an Instagram with somebody excited that they could 1-finger brake with the new SRAM and I remember thinking, “you couldn’t until now?!?!” Because I’ve always braked with 1 finger on Shimano.

From the drops I also break with one finger of course.
From the hoods the Sram is way ahead of Shimano...

Hmm, interesting. More modulation or more power? Or both? I 1-finger brake both in the drops and on the hoods with Shimano so I guess I never really questioned wanting more power.

More power (I would say 25-30%) and a bit more modulation (but that is very subjective).

Again, the Dura Ace brakes are great, but there is a significant difference to the new SRAM brakes.

[Bikera]

Do new products matter if they're all just iterations of the same old products with the same old flaws and they don't work together with already existing products?

Shimano is so far behind SRAM especially on the gravel space that no matter what Shimano releases it's just trying to play catch up. And if they were to surprise everyone and release a 1x13 GRX SRAM could just release their Force XPLR 13-speed the next day and undercut them on price.

1) I would argue that SRAM has been more likely to release products with flaws and/or "the same old flaws". Examples: SRAM's FD shifting has always been sub-par vs. Shimano (inconsistent/clunky, prone to drop chains, slow...my GRX mechanical FD shifts better than my Force AXS one) & may have only finally caught up w/ the latest RED E1 but not yet in the other tiers, SRAM brakes have always had less pad retraction making them more likely to rub & make noise, and I had SRAM's 1st Gen electronic 11s RED eTap which was absolute garbage.

2) Both Shimano & SRAM have issues w/ stuff working together...just in different ways, like:
a) The compatibility of SRAM's 11s eTap derailleurs w/12s eTap/AXS shifters/levers (but not vice versa) is not particularly useful since the typical use case of "compatibility" would be migrating from 11s to 12s (i.e., I had replace all my 11s RED eTap stuff other than the brake calipers/rotors inorder to upgrade to 12s since the 11s RD/FD could not be upgraded to 12s...which probably was a good thing since the 11s RED eTap derailleurs worked worse for me vs. SRAM's 10/11s mechanical),
b) the GRX 1x12 RD works w/Shimano's existing 12s MTB chains & cassettes all the way up to the 10-51t cassette which is not the case w/ SRAM.
c) OTOH Shimano's mechanical shift levers are incompatible between road/gravel & MTB and they definitely make it harder to mix/match some road & gravel components inorder to get lower gearing on a road bike.
d) It's only just recently w/ RED 13s XPLR that SRAM has made a conscious effort towards backwards compatibility w/ 12s.

3) I can't see how "Shimano is so far behind SRAM" with their road drivetrains other than perhaps w/the new RED 13s XPLR which only to some might be considered a viable all-around road drivetrain choice. Otherwise both have their own unique sets of positives/negatives in the road drivetrain space and neither can really be considered ahead there.

4) I do agree that SRAM is ahead in the gravel space for many reasons except for one: GRX 1x12 mechanical is a far better choice (vs. SRAM's barely-above-Walmart quality Apex junk) for those that don't want electronic shifting on their gravel bike.

[Lina]

Do new products matter if they're all just iterations of the same old products with the same old flaws and they don't work together with already existing products?

Shimano is so far behind SRAM especially on the gravel space that no matter what Shimano releases it's just trying to play catch up. And if they were to surprise everyone and release a 1x13 GRX SRAM could just release their Force XPLR 13-speed the next day and undercut them on price.

1) I would argue that SRAM has been more likely to release products with flaws and/or "the same old flaws". Examples: SRAM's FD shifting has always been sub-par vs. Shimano (inconsistent/clunky, prone to drop chains, slow...my GRX mechanical FD shifts better than my Force AXS one) & may have only finally caught up w/ the latest RED E1 but not yet in the other tiers, SRAM brakes have always had less pad retraction making them more likely to rub & make noise, and I had SRAM's 1st Gen electronic 11s RED eTap which was absolute garbage.

2) Both Shimano & SRAM have issues w/ stuff working together...just in different ways. There was "0" compatibility between SRAM's 11s & 12s eTap drivetrains (I had to replace everything other than the brake calipers/rotors to upgrade to 12s), the GRX 1x12 RD works w/Shimano's existing 12s MTB chains & cassettes all the way up to the 10-51t cassette which is not the case w/ SRAM. OTOH Shimano's mechanical shift levers are incompatible between road/gravel & MTB and they definitely make it harder to mix/match some road & gravel components inorder to get lower gearing on a road bike. It's only just recently w/ RED 13s XPLR that SRAM has made a conscious effort towards backwards compatibility w/ 12s.

3) I can't see how "Shimano is so far behind SRAM" with their road drivetrains other than perhaps w/the new RED 13s XPLR which only to some might be considered a viable all-around road drivetrain choice. Otherwise both have their own unique sets of positives/negatives in the road drivetrain space and neither can really be considered ahead there.

4) I do agree that SRAM is ahead in the gravel space for many reasons except for one: GRX 1x12 mechanical is a far better choice (vs. SRAM's barely-above-Walmart quality Rival junk) for those that don't want electronic shifting on their gravel bike.

1) SRAM has improved that front shifting on every iteration considerably. They've improved the brakes. Meanwhile Shimano released yet another iteration of the same cranks.

2) And they fixed some on of that 1st gen eTap - AXS compatibility. And after that it's clear they're purposefully making everything cross compatible, not just between generations but also between segments.

[OtterSpace]

I love the Dura Ace brakes but the Sram are for sure stronger.

With Sram I always use 1-2 fingers to brake (hard), with Shimano i am nervous when I do it.

I cannot understand why someboday would say the Shimano brakes have a tiny edge...

I 1 finger brake with Shimano with zero doubts. So maybe that’s it? Was that not a thing with SRAM?

Edit: I remember seeing an Instagram with somebody excited that they could 1-finger brake with the new SRAM and I remember thinking, “you couldn’t until now?!?!” Because I’ve always braked with 1 finger on Shimano.

From the drops I also break with one finger of course.
From the hoods the Sram is way ahead of Shimano...

Hmm, interesting. More modulation or more power? Or both? I 1-finger brake both in the drops and on the hoods with Shimano so I guess I never really questioned wanting more power.

I don't have Red E1 shifters but I've been trying to follow this as closely as possible as this has been my biggest issue with historic SRAM road groupsets and I'm heavily considering E1 shifting & braking.

From what I can tell from the trickle of info and reading between the lines full E1 is likely stronger and easier to initially actuate but is grabbier with a tiny bit less predictable modulation than full Shimano 12s road.

Here is the chris miller rundown descibed earlier

If you put a gun to my head and asked what braking is best with the info out at this point and without trying E1 I would say:

non braking limited riding: grabbyness doesnt matter much and might even be an advantage for many so likely E1 then Shimano with Campag last.
for braking limited riding where predictability is important: Campag miles ahead then Shimano closely followed by E1

[Bikera]

1) SRAM has improved that front shifting on every iteration considerably. They've improved the brakes. Meanwhile Shimano released yet another iteration of the same cranks.

2) And they fixed some on of that 1st gen eTap - AXS compatibility. And after that it's clear they're purposefully making everything cross compatible, not just between generations but also between segments.

With all due respect: 1) Other than perhaps the latest RED E1 AXS (but not the latest Force/Rival AXS) which I've not yet tried SRAM has not improved the front shifting since the 10/11s "yaw" days (I've owned every RED/Force iteration from the 10/11s to the latest 12s Force AXS), and 2) SRAM absolutely has not fixed any drivetrain incompatibility between the 1st gen 11s eTap and any of the 12s eTap/AXS stuff (the "AXS" referred to above is SRAM's 2nd gen 12s electroninc shifting, not 1st gen). OTOH I already implicitly agreed about what's lacking w/ Shimano cranks when I said "they definitely make it harder [than SRAM] to mix/match some road & gravel components inorder to get lower gearing on a road bike" which is mostly due to Shimano still not accomodating anything lower than a 34t on their road cranks.

I own bikes with both Shimano and SRAM and they both have their pluses/minues. I also ride with people that will only buy SRAM (even though they complain about the FD) and others that will only buy Shimano (even though they complain about some of Shimano's "stodginess"). Choices are a good thing given that these decisions involve a lot of subjectivity and personal preference.

[pmprego]

@Bikera

My red etap shifter broke and i ended up replacing it with force axs 12spd shifters. Just saying it works.

[TobinHatesYou]

4) I do agree that SRAM is ahead in the gravel space for many reasons except for one: GRX 1x12 mechanical is a far better choice (vs. SRAM's barely-above-Walmart quality Rival junk) for those that don't want electronic shifting on their gravel bike.

Someone here has never used Rival and it shows. Functionally, all SRAM groups are the same. The only major difference between Rival and higher-end SRAM is the spring clutch vs fluid-damped clutch, and even that's not as simple as saying the Orbit fluid clutch is better.

[TobinHatesYou]

Choices are a good thing given that these decisions involve a lot of subjectivity and personal preference.

Choice is great. Problem is RX825 is so bad, no OEM partner wants to provide that choice. That's on Shimano to make a groupset worth putting on bikes and not the brand partners to stoop to Shimano's level.

[Bikera]

Someone here has never used Rival and it shows. Functionally, all SRAM groups are the same. The only major difference between Rival and higher-end SRAM is the spring clutch vs fluid-damped clutch, and even that's not as simple as saying the Orbit fluid clutch is better.

Sorry but I meant to say "Apex" (can I be excused for that since I was referring to SRAM's only remaining mechanical shifting system which isn't Rival? ). Though I did once have a Rival 10/11s mechanical RD which fell apart in less than a year and I've never experienced something like that with 105, but otherwise I don't disagree with your assessment of Rival Oh, and not to hurl a touche after my blunder, but Apex is not functionally the same as Rival/Force/RED (i.e., no clutch and the smallest cog is an 11t)

[kytyree]

I’ve not found the E1 brakes to be grabby.

And while I think the front shifting is better on E1, I am fine with how Force D2 front shifting has worked for me.

[Bikera]

Choice is great. Problem is RX825 is so bad, no OEM partner wants to provide that choice. That's on Shimano to make a groupset worth putting on bikes and not the brand partners to stoop to Shimano's level.

Yeah, I did not like my GRX 2x11 so I doubt I'd like the 2x12 any better (Di2 or not). OTOH I love my GRX RX820-series mechanical 2x12 (other than the crankset which is butt ugly & no 165mm so I ditched it for Force D1 arms & Alugear chainring). I am glad I chose it vs. Force XPLR.

[Lina]

1) SRAM has improved that front shifting on every iteration considerably. They've improved the brakes. Meanwhile Shimano released yet another iteration of the same cranks.

2) And they fixed some on of that 1st gen eTap - AXS compatibility. And after that it's clear they're purposefully making everything cross compatible, not just between generations but also between segments.

With all due respect: 1) Other than perhaps the latest RED E1 AXS (but not the latest Force/Rival AXS) which I've not yet tried SRAM has not improved the front shifting since the 10/11s "yaw" days (I've owned every RED/Force iteration from the 10/11s to the latest 12s Force AXS), and 2) SRAM absolutely has not fixed any drivetrain incompatibility between the 1st gen 11s eTap and any of the 12s eTap/AXS stuff (the "AXS" referred to above is SRAM's 2nd gen 12s electroninc shifting, not 1st gen). OTOH I already implicitly agreed about what's lacking w/ Shimano cranks when I said "they definitely make it harder [than SRAM] to mix/match some road & gravel components inorder to get lower gearing on a road bike" which is mostly due to Shimano still not accomodating anything lower than a 34t on their road cranks.

I own bikes with both Shimano and SRAM and they both have their pluses/minues. I also ride with people that will only buy SRAM (even though they complain about the FD) and others that will only buy Shimano (even though they complain about some of Shimano's "stodginess"). Choices are a good thing given that these decisions involve a lot of subjectivity and personal preference.

If you can't set up the AXS FDs to work without issues that's just a skill issue on your part. I'm sorry about that. I also have both 11 speed eTap and AXS FDs. And there's a definite improvement between them.

Yes they have improved compatibility. You can now mix and match some of the 1st gen eTap parts with AXS parts. It's not 100% but it's a lot better than it was at the start. And yes, it's a shame it's not 100%. But at the same time they have shown commitment to making everything cross compatible ever since that.

[wheelbuilder]

1) SRAM has improved that front shifting on every iteration considerably. They've improved the brakes. Meanwhile Shimano released yet another iteration of the same cranks.

2) And they fixed some on of that 1st gen eTap - AXS compatibility. And after that it's clear they're purposefully making everything cross compatible, not just between generations but also between segments.

With all due respect: 1) Other than perhaps the latest RED E1 AXS (but not the latest Force/Rival AXS) which I've not yet tried SRAM has not improved the front shifting since the 10/11s "yaw" days (I've owned every RED/Force iteration from the 10/11s to the latest 12s Force AXS), and 2) SRAM absolutely has not fixed any drivetrain incompatibility between the 1st gen 11s eTap and any of the 12s eTap/AXS stuff (the "AXS" referred to above is SRAM's 2nd gen 12s electroninc shifting, not 1st gen). OTOH I already implicitly agreed about what's lacking w/ Shimano cranks when I said "they definitely make it harder [than SRAM] to mix/match some road & gravel components inorder to get lower gearing on a road bike" which is mostly due to Shimano still not accomodating anything lower than a 34t on their road cranks.

I own bikes with both Shimano and SRAM and they both have their pluses/minues. I also ride with people that will only buy SRAM (even though they complain about the FD) and others that will only buy Shimano (even though they complain about some of Shimano's "stodginess"). Choices are a good thing given that these decisions involve a lot of subjectivity and personal preference.

I disagree. As a personal owner of all you mentioned, and a former mech who installed and observed them all. Red 11spd etap front shifting was improved upon greatly with the original red axs. The e1 stuff is miles above that.