Aero Helmet

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SL7latin
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm

by SL7latin

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:58 pm
Has anyone seen a direct comparison between the Evade 2 and Evade 3 in terms of aerodynamics?
According to Spech's reveal press:
"Evade 3 can save less than 1 watt compared to evade 2 at 31 mph".

So the aerodynamics is quite even, but evade 3 is focus on ventilation, 10% more airflow than evade 2.

Kevin7767
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:43 am

by Kevin7767

dsveddy wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:46 pm
The release of the Procen Air really makes me wonder why we aren't seeing road riders using shorter tail TT helmets in road racing, especially after seeing that Alex Dowsett video where he reflects on this question himself. He's right--they're objectively faster and are (surprisingly) legal in road racing, the only thing seemingly holding everyone back is that it would look stupid. I'm way to slow to give it a go myself, but if I was consistently challenging for podiums in my local racing scene...I wouldn't feel stupid if it helped me win races.
I think this is one of those things in cycling where a new take is looked down upon because it's different, even when it shows clear benefits. Here we have a helmet that's more aero and quieter, it just doesn't have the traditional look. My prediction is this will be just like the move from rim brakes to disc brakes, or the move from very narrow tires and high pressure to wider tires at lower pressure -- in 5-10 years the majority will all be wearing Procen Air copies / short tail TT helmets... and we'll all be better off for it. There will still be 'classic' bikes and equipment and people can choose those if they like but within 10 years the majority will be moved on and it will all be normalized.

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208
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:57 pm

by 208

Kevin7767 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:41 pm
dsveddy wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:46 pm
The release of the Procen Air really makes me wonder why we aren't seeing road riders using shorter tail TT helmets in road racing, especially after seeing that Alex Dowsett video where he reflects on this question himself. He's right--they're objectively faster and are (surprisingly) legal in road racing, the only thing seemingly holding everyone back is that it would look stupid. I'm way to slow to give it a go myself, but if I was consistently challenging for podiums in my local racing scene...I wouldn't feel stupid if it helped me win races.
I think this is one of those things in cycling where a new take is looked down upon because it's different, even when it shows clear benefits. Here we have a helmet that's more aero and quieter, it just doesn't have the traditional look. My prediction is this will be just like the move from rim brakes to disc brakes, or the move from very narrow tires and high pressure to wider tires at lower pressure -- in 5-10 years the majority will all be wearing Procen Air copies / short tail TT helmets... and we'll all be better off for it. There will still be 'classic' bikes and equipment and people can choose those if they like but within 10 years the majority will be moved on and it will all be normalized.
well said brother

208
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:57 pm

by 208

can anyone with the procen air comment on ventilation? any fellow heavy sweaters?

dsveddy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:56 pm

by dsveddy

Kevin7767 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:41 pm
dsveddy wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:46 pm
The release of the Procen Air really makes me wonder why we aren't seeing road riders using shorter tail TT helmets in road racing, especially after seeing that Alex Dowsett video where he reflects on this question himself. He's right--they're objectively faster and are (surprisingly) legal in road racing, the only thing seemingly holding everyone back is that it would look stupid. I'm way to slow to give it a go myself, but if I was consistently challenging for podiums in my local racing scene...I wouldn't feel stupid if it helped me win races.
I think this is one of those things in cycling where a new take is looked down upon because it's different, even when it shows clear benefits. Here we have a helmet that's more aero and quieter, it just doesn't have the traditional look. My prediction is this will be just like the move from rim brakes to disc brakes, or the move from very narrow tires and high pressure to wider tires at lower pressure -- in 5-10 years the majority will all be wearing Procen Air copies / short tail TT helmets... and we'll all be better off for it. There will still be 'classic' bikes and equipment and people can choose those if they like but within 10 years the majority will be moved on and it will all be normalized.
The thing I wonder is if we are going to see an intermediate stage in road cycling like what happened in track sprinting, where everyone briefly used "tweener" helmets that split the difference between a TT helmet and an aero-road helmet, before moving on to full-on short-tail TT helmets, simply because of the pressure to not "look stupid". Personally I see the Procen as a tweener helmet--which is why I bring up the Aerohead, the Aerohead is a TT helmet currently used by track sprinters and endurance racers, so it would be interesting if someone was bold enough to accelerate the trend and just wear the Aerohead instead of a tweener helmet in a pro road race. Alternatively the pressure to look "normal" is so strong we get stuck in a tweener stage forever, where helmets just continually flirt with the idea of a full-on TT helmet--wouldn't be surprising, considering that it gives helmet manufactureres a reason to market an n+1 helmet to cyclists.

Lina
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

dsveddy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:48 pm
Kevin7767 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:41 pm
dsveddy wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:46 pm
The release of the Procen Air really makes me wonder why we aren't seeing road riders using shorter tail TT helmets in road racing, especially after seeing that Alex Dowsett video where he reflects on this question himself. He's right--they're objectively faster and are (surprisingly) legal in road racing, the only thing seemingly holding everyone back is that it would look stupid. I'm way to slow to give it a go myself, but if I was consistently challenging for podiums in my local racing scene...I wouldn't feel stupid if it helped me win races.
I think this is one of those things in cycling where a new take is looked down upon because it's different, even when it shows clear benefits. Here we have a helmet that's more aero and quieter, it just doesn't have the traditional look. My prediction is this will be just like the move from rim brakes to disc brakes, or the move from very narrow tires and high pressure to wider tires at lower pressure -- in 5-10 years the majority will all be wearing Procen Air copies / short tail TT helmets... and we'll all be better off for it. There will still be 'classic' bikes and equipment and people can choose those if they like but within 10 years the majority will be moved on and it will all be normalized.
The thing I wonder is if we are going to see an intermediate stage in road cycling like what happened in track sprinting, where everyone briefly used "tweener" helmets that split the difference between a TT helmet and an aero-road helmet, before moving on to full-on short-tail TT helmets, simply because of the pressure to not "look stupid". Personally I see the Procen as a tweener helmet--which is why I bring up the Aerohead, the Aerohead is a TT helmet currently used by track sprinters and endurance racers, so it would be interesting if someone was bold enough to accelerate the trend and just wear the Aerohead instead of a tweener helmet in a pro road race. Alternatively the pressure to look "normal" is so strong we get stuck in a tweener stage forever, where helmets just continually flirt with the idea of a full-on TT helmet--wouldn't be surprising, considering that it gives helmet manufactureres a reason to market an n+1 helmet to cyclists.
The problem with many TT helmets is that they don't exactly have amazing ventilation. Not really a problem for track sprinters, endurance racers. Because their events are either super short or their effort level is low. Even TTs are usually under or around an hour. Something you can suffer on a hot helmet but not exactly comfy. Sure the Procen and Procen Air both have pretty good ventilation. And while I haven't ridden mine in that warm weather yet I can tell it's not going to be noticeably worse than a 2nd gen Evade.

alanyu
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

I don't wear TT and short tail helmet because I want to give less weight to my neck. I can feel the difference 210 g (HJC Furion 2.0, Kask Valegro) vs 248 g (Lazer Z1 Mips). Lazer has been locked in the cabinet for a long time

I chase a lot of aeroness, using Furion as much as possible, in all my crits, and most granfondos no hotter than 32 C. A TT helmet? My weak neck says no.

dsveddy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:56 pm

by dsveddy

Lina wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:44 pm
The problem with many TT helmets is that they don't exactly have amazing ventilation. Not really a problem for track sprinters, endurance racers. Because their events are either super short or their effort level is low. Even TTs are usually under or around an hour. Something you can suffer on a hot helmet but not exactly comfy. Sure the Procen and Procen Air both have pretty good ventilation. And while I haven't ridden mine in that warm weather yet I can tell it's not going to be noticeably worse than a 2nd gen Evade.
By endurance I meant track-endurance events, like points racing, madison, scratch--events that are shorter than an hour, nonetheless.

In any case, I think you might be overstating the importance of helmet ventilation. Last two hour records were set in environments set to ~27C (~80F), a temperature determined to be right on the edge of the rider overheating, and required extensive heat aclimitization for the attempts. And even then, Dan and Ganna used the Kask bambino (and full-sleeve suits). My point being that the temperature at which aero-gains stop outweighing the heat-management losses seems to be quite high (under ideal conditions, I recognize your average punter will not be so well heat aclimitized, and have a lower threshold).

Setting that aside, there's a whole chunk of the calendar where temps are so cold riders started putting covers over the hemet vents to keep the cold out (fittingly, this is the origin-story of the aero-road helmet). Obviously it makes sense to put away the TT helmet for a 200km TDF stage. But I think it would be very reasonable to wear a helmet like the Aerohead for a race like MSR, Strade Bianche, etc.

Lina
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

dsveddy wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:07 pm
Lina wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:44 pm
The problem with many TT helmets is that they don't exactly have amazing ventilation. Not really a problem for track sprinters, endurance racers. Because their events are either super short or their effort level is low. Even TTs are usually under or around an hour. Something you can suffer on a hot helmet but not exactly comfy. Sure the Procen and Procen Air both have pretty good ventilation. And while I haven't ridden mine in that warm weather yet I can tell it's not going to be noticeably worse than a 2nd gen Evade.
By endurance I meant track-endurance events, like points racing, madison, scratch--events that are shorter than an hour, nonetheless.

In any case, I think you might be overstating the importance of helmet ventilation. Last two hour records were set in environments set to ~27C (~80F), a temperature determined to be right on the edge of the rider overheating, and required extensive heat aclimitization for the attempts. And even then, Dan and Ganna used the Kask bambino (and full-sleeve suits). My point being that the temperature at which aero-gains stop outweighing the heat-management losses seems to be quite high (under ideal conditions, I recognize your average punter will not be so well heat aclimitized, and have a lower threshold).

Setting that aside, there's a whole chunk of the calendar where temps are so cold riders started putting covers over the hemet vents to keep the cold out (fittingly, this is the origin-story of the aero-road helmet). Obviously it makes sense to put away the TT helmet for a 200km TDF stage. But I think it would be very reasonable to wear a helmet like the Aerohead for a race like MSR, Strade Bianche, etc.
For colder classics races it can definitely make sense. But the pro peloton is also really resistant to change. And ventilation makes a huge difference when you're in multi-hour events. For a TT/crit/track it probably makes sense to optimize aero fully and just suffer if it's hot and you don't have the best ventilation. But no one wants to spend 5 hours with a hot helmet.

Requiem84
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:07 pm

by Requiem84

Heat management is more important than aero. Have the wrong helmet one? Lose 10 watts. Become overheated? Power drops with 50watts.

Underlined by the fact that in last years Giro TT most riders either swapped to a ventilated helmet on the climb or raced the flat part with a regular helmet.

What the Procen imo nicely does is merging the field of TT helmets with rioad helmets whilst being practical enough for a lot of road riding. They started a new category and other brands will follow swiftly.

repoman
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:28 pm

by repoman

I've been wearing a Gamechanger Ver 1 in 90F/32C and it's not that bad for temp. Worst thing is if you get an itch and you can't scratch it like with an open helmet. Best thing is it keeps bugs from getting caught in it...ever had a wasp get trapped in your helmet while descending? :shock:

Lina
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Requiem84 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:53 pm
What the Procen imo nicely does is merging the field of TT helmets with rioad helmets whilst being practical enough for a lot of road riding. They started a new category and other brands will follow swiftly.
Another thing the Procen Air does well is that the visor is stored behind the helmet. So on a climb you can take the visor off without blocking all the air inlets. Which is what many TT helmets do because they're not designed to ever be ridden without the visor. It's clearly a road helmet and Poc has clearly spent time thinking it through.

danridesbikes
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:27 pm

by danridesbikes

SL7latin wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:52 am
K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:58 pm
Has anyone seen a direct comparison between the Evade 2 and Evade 3 in terms of aerodynamics?
According to Spech's reveal press:
"Evade 3 can save less than 1 watt compared to evade 2 at 31 mph".

So the aerodynamics is quite even, but evade 3 is focus on ventilation, 10% more airflow than evade 2.
50% more bugs through the honking great hole in the front though (i have both)

dsveddy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:56 pm

by dsveddy

Requiem84 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:53 pm
Heat management is more important than aero. Have the wrong helmet one? Lose 10 watts. Become overheated? Power drops with 50watts.

Underlined by the fact that in last years Giro TT most riders either swapped to a ventilated helmet on the climb or raced the flat part with a regular helmet.

What the Procen imo nicely does is merging the field of TT helmets with rioad helmets whilst being practical enough for a lot of road riding. They started a new category and other brands will follow swiftly.
Interesting you point out the Giro TT, considering that Primoz won and Almeda got 3rd wearing TT helmets. If anything it underlines how tradeoffs between aero, heat, and weight are course and conditions-specific, and that running a TT helmet in the most TT helmet-unfavorable conditions imaginable didn't exactly limit the top riders from doing well.

by Weenie


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repoman
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:28 pm

by repoman

danridesbikes wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:58 pm
SL7latin wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:52 am
K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:58 pm
Has anyone seen a direct comparison between the Evade 2 and Evade 3 in terms of aerodynamics?
According to Spech's reveal press:
"Evade 3 can save less than 1 watt compared to evade 2 at 31 mph".

So the aerodynamics is quite even, but evade 3 is focus on ventilation, 10% more airflow than evade 2.
50% more bugs through the honking great hole in the front though (i have both)
Looks like a nice spot for a bike light

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