Shimano 12-speed cassette with SRAM AXS?

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JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

bobones wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:25 am
Why the spacer fixes the wobble remains a complete mystery to me, but I can see how a slightly less extreme chain angle in big-big, with the RD working closer to the middle of its micro adjustment range, is just enough to stop the chain hopping and give satisfactory indexing throughout. Then again, it's probably just a placebo effect :roll:
I'll add that it seems that if the trim was just about perfectly centered on the two middle cogs, then the cogs at the extreme ends would only be splitting whatever the difference is between a shimano and sram cassette, right? Seems totally doable if the derailler hanger is 100% straight.

SRAM 12 road cog pitch matches their MTB cog pitch right? Shimano 12 road pitch matches their MTB pitch, right?

There are tons of these videos all over YT from the MTBers:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10938
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

bobones wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:25 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:32 pm

If the chainline is narrower with road DUB cranks, then it makes no sense to add a 1mm spacer behind a cassette.

Since I have actually tried a Sramano setup, I’lll say that my DA 11-34 cassette definitely sat more inboard than my Red 10-33 while also being wider. I don’t think adding the 1mm spacer would really do much other than serve as a placebo though. It is merely offsetting your indexing by 1mm while the real problem is that Shimano 12-speed cassettes have a wider cog pitch.
You tried Sramano, but couldn't get it to work. Meanwhile I have 2 Sramano bikes with rear shifting as good as my 2 pure AXS bikes. The difference is I used a spacer to make mine work, while you didn't even bother trying it, probably because you think you know better than everyone else. In fact, by saying it's just a placebo, you're basically calling me a liar. I could post a video showing the clear difference made by the spacer, but I don't really need to prove anything to you, and I can't really be bothered right now.

When I first tried the Ultegra cassette there was a pronounced wobble with it on one of my wheels and the spacer was just something I tried to fix the wobble. Turned out that it also stopped the chain hopping in big-big when indexing was good elsewhere on the cassette. Now, when I put the new 105 cassette on a different wheel set, I couldn't tune out the hopping without affecting indexing elsewhere, but lo and behold, adding a spacer allowed the chain to run smoothly on all the cogs.

Why the spacer fixes the wobble remains a complete mystery to me, but I can see how a slightly less extreme chain angle in big-big, with the RD working closer to the middle of its micro adjustment range, is just enough to stop the chain hopping and give satisfactory indexing throughout. Then again, it's probably just a placebo effect :roll:

I'll try it just for you eventually, but it simply doesn't make sense from a geometry standpoint. Shimming the cassette changes an offset, but the problem is clearly pitch/slope related.

So now you say there was a wobble and the shim incidentally removed it. I could believe that, but I could also believe that I'm less tolerant of running with a slight bit of extra noise in the largest cog.

I bet the Srampagnolo equivalent works better because the cog pitch is somewhere in between and the Campy chain is 0.1mm narrower.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10938
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

JaeOne3345 wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:36 am

SRAM 12 road cog pitch matches their MTB cog pitch right? Shimano 12 road pitch matches their MTB pitch, right?

No. There's a reason why the flat-top chain is only 5.0mm wide while Eagle and HG12 chains are 5.25mm wide.

Obviously bobones and I disagree about whether the mixed setup can work perfectly. I say it's functional, but noisier. I had even more problems with a KMC 12-speed chain before I tried the HG12 chain. With the HG12 chain I had one click of MicroAdjust worth of tolerance whereas with an full SRAM setup I have something like a buffer of 3 clicks in either direction before the chain starts to make noise.

I used an Abbey Tools HAG to straighten my RD hanger just in case.

If you're genuinely curious, you'll just have to try it yourself and see if it works "enough" for you.

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:49 am
I'll try it just for you eventually, but it simply doesn't make sense from a geometry standpoint. Shimming the cassette changes an offset, but the problem is clearly pitch/slope related.
Shimming the cassette also changes the chain angle at the extremes, and that's what's making the difference. There is no difficulty indexing over the entire cassette range from the small ring, which completely disproves your theory.
So now you say it removed a wobble, and the shim incidentally removed it. I could believe that, but I could also believe that I'm less tolerant of running with a slight bit of extra noise in the largest cog.
I mentioned the wobble in the other thread about running this on my Ti bike 1800 miles ago. I don't tolerate noise or other imperfections with my bikes, which is one of the reasons I prefer rim brakes.
I bet the Srampagnolo equivalent works better because the cog pitch is somewhere in between and the Campy chain is 0.1mm narrower.
Pure speculation when there are accounts posted in this thread to the contrary.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10938
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

bobones wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:22 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:49 am
I'll try it just for you eventually, but it simply doesn't make sense from a geometry standpoint. Shimming the cassette changes an offset, but the problem is clearly pitch/slope related.
Shimming the cassette also changes the chain angle at the extremes, and that's what's making the difference. There is no difficulty indexing over the entire cassette range from the small ring, which completely disproves your theory.
So now you say it removed a wobble, and the shim incidentally removed it. I could believe that, but I could also believe that I'm less tolerant of running with a slight bit of extra noise in the largest cog.
I mentioned the wobble in the other thread about running this on my Ti bike 1800 miles ago. I don't tolerate noise or other imperfections with my bikes, which is one of the reasons I prefer rim brakes.
I bet the Srampagnolo equivalent works better because the cog pitch is somewhere in between and the Campy chain is 0.1mm narrower.
Pure speculation when there are accounts posted in this thread to the contrary.

Road Wide pushes the DUB chainline out to 47.5mm and that doesn't have an impact on noise in a full SRAM setup.

joeyb1000 just claimed Srampagnolo works "really well."

:noidea:

It's all about operational windows and it's clear that mixing groups shrinks those windows, sometimes to the point of incompatibility with certain gear ranges, chainstay lengths, etc.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:35 am
joeyb1000 just claimed Srampagnolo works "really well."

:noidea:

It's all about operational windows and it's clear that mixing groups shrinks those windows, sometimes to the point of incompatibility with certain gear ranges, chainstay lengths, etc.
joeyb1000 says he was successful while running the campy cassete/chain/crank.

On the other hand, this dude states he couldn't get the Campy cassette to work, but deeper in the comments says he switched to a Shimano 11-34 has no issues on a 2x set up with a Shimano crankset. No idea what chain was in use when he tried the Campy cassette though. Would be good to know.



Clearly YMMV and it definitely is gonna come down to different combinations. Nothing left to do but play around with it.

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

For the doubting Thomas' among you ...

Ultegra with Rival AXS (Ultegra chain) - good shifting



105 with Force AXS (Force chain) - 1 mm spacer (micro adjust at position 16) - good shifting if a little noiser than with Shimano chain above



105 with Force AXS - no spacer. Chain jumping on big ring with micro adjust at anything higher than 7 but still noise lower down at position 9 - no acceptable compromise


JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

More googling:

https://www.matosvelo.fr/index.php?post ... s-le-point

Matos Velo swapped nothing but cassettes between the two 12s groups. DA12 chain on the narrower AXS cassette was noisy, but DA cassette on the AXS group was described as (google translated):
the Shimano 12 cassette is accepted by the SRAM Red eTap AXS derailleur and the operation, although slightly less fluid and quiet than with a SRAM cassette, remains very good.
...which backs up Bobone's own findings above with the AXS chain on the Shimano cassette.

Thank you for sharing those vids, Bobones!

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

It's probably worth noting that my first excursion using an HG cassette with AXS predates Shimano's 12-speed releases, where I used a Sunshine branded 11-34 all steel cassette from AliE.

At first, I could only get it running acceptably at either the top or bottom of the cassette, but after carefully correcting the hanger alignment, I got it running well all over the cassette, albeit with the micro adjust position very close to the inboard limit. Intrestingly, the Force cassette I had on before was totally fine the hanger alignment as it was.

I used this cassette all last winter on the above black bike and wheelset, but on trying it again recently with a new chain, it was slipping under load in several of the smaller cogs, so it seems to be worn, and I cannot recommend them for durability.

It's also worth mentioning that there is no room for a spacer behind this cassette as the lock ring threads will not engage with one. I haven't measured the width of these cassettes to compare them, but there are clear differences with their horizontal offset relative to the hub, but I think the cog pitch is close enough to be able to get quiet, reliable shifting with a straight hanger and some experimentation. At least, that's my experience.

NickJHP
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

Shifting on the ZTTO seems fine. I'm using an XTR 12s chain. FD and RD are Rival AXS.

I have an 11s ZTTO cassette on another bike that was previously using Ultegra cassette (during pandemic I couldn't get replacement Ultegra cassette, so bunged on ZTTO). Can't distinguish shifting difference between the two.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1198
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

I just ordered the Red AXS flatmount group as it was onsale here in Canada. I currently have a Campy P2M crank and running a Bora 35 and DA60 wheelset with the Edub 29/11 Shimano cassette and the Recon Campy 29/12 with a Campy chain. I know its a real mishmash of parts but I will do whatever I can to make it work. I am not too finicky on shifting as long as its not overly noisy and makes the shift within reason. I was able to make the etap work with non round rings on a DA crank with Shimano cassette on one wheelset and Campy on the other.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

bikeboy1tr wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 am
I just ordered the Red AXS flatmount group as it was onsale here in Canada. I currently have a Campy P2M crank and running a Bora 35 and DA60 wheelset with the Edub 29/11 Shimano cassette and the Recon Campy 29/12 with a Campy chain. I know its a real mishmash of parts but I will do whatever I can to make it work. I am not too finicky on shifting as long as its not overly noisy and makes the shift within reason. I was able to make the etap work with non round rings on a DA crank with Shimano cassette on one wheelset and Campy on the other.

I'll say that running flat-top chains and certain spider/chainring combos can result in sadness. The flat-top chain is 5.0mm wide can actually end up in between chainrings when shifting down. This happens consistently with my P2M spider, though only happens in very specific situations with my Quarq spider. This doesn't happen with well-designed AXS rings like the OE SRAM stuff or the Croder rings because the big rings bulge at the back, forcing the chain to drop farther away when downshifting.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1198
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Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

@THY I think I will give this a go with my Campy chain first and see what the result is and then go from there if no success. If I have to change out chainrings then I will go that route.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
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JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

Finally got my beater set up finished on the stand tonight:

-2010 Pedal Force QS3 (same mould as a Ritte Bosberg without the ISP)..rim brake obviously
-Rival FD with SRAMs 34.9 clamp, set up using the FD tool.
-Rival RD
-8100 11-30 Cassette, no spacer needed
-8100 52/36 chainrings
-Rotor Aldhu arms, 43.5 road axle, no spacers or O-rings on the drive side. (This matched the chainline as close as possible to a complete R7000
crankset I have laying around by comparing the distance of the inner ring to my chain catcher).
-Sigeyi ALDHU 4x110 Spider
-Shimano BSA bottom bracket
-Ultegra/XT CN M8100 chain
-Carbon Ti 11s rear hub (no spacer needed for cassette)
-B adjustment around 8mm (somewhere between the 5mm for a 33T and 10mm for a 28T when using a 33T max RD). I had skipping on the 12th to 13th tooth shift until I remembered to mess with the B tension. Smooth after that.

This thing runs flawless on the stand so far. I am at 13 on the AXS app trim adjustment (1-29). I am running a bone dry chain on the stand that I just stripped with UFO clean. I wanted to be able to hear any noise possible without it being masked by wax/lube. I won't be able to get around to riding this bike until the weekend most likely, but on the stand it is great so far. I can't get the chain to drop to the inside or outside on the stand, even in the middle of the cassette range.

I will be sure to report back once I can finally get it on the road. Need a few other bits like brake outers, bar tape, etc.

Now I just want Wipperman to release the 12s links.

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bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

JaeOne3345 wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:14 am
Finally got my beater set up finished on the stand tonight:
...
This thing runs flawless on the stand so far. I am at 13 on the AXS app trim adjustment (1-29). I am running a bone dry chain on the stand that I just stripped with UFO clean. I wanted to be able to hear any noise possible without it being masked by wax/lube. I won't be able to get around to riding this bike until the weekend most likely, but on the stand it is great so far. I can't get the chain to drop to the inside or outside on the stand, even in the middle of the cassette range.
Very nice work there! :beerchug:

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