Shimano 12-speed cassette with SRAM AXS?

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NickJHP
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

Is the cog to cog spacing the same for SRAM and Shimano 12-speed cassettes? I have a bike presently running SRAM Red eTap 11-speed, but with Force 12-speed AXS shifters, as I destroyed one of the 11s eTap shifters in a crash (with current firmware, the AXS shifters work fine with 11-speed eTap derailleurs). The eTap RD is getting a fair bit of slop in the parallelogram after half a dozen years of use, so I was thinking of replacing the derailleurs with AXS FD and RD. However, my wheels have HG freehubs - if I get a Shimano 12s cassette and chain, is the spacing close enough to work with the AXS RD?

The wheels use DT hubs, so I could theoretically swap the freehub to XDR, but I'm really not interested in either a 10t small cog, nor the flattop chain (which would involve getting AXS crank/chainrings).

If the spacing is not compatible, are there any 3rd party manufacturers who make 12-speed cassettes for HG freehub with the SRAM spacing?

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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The spacing isn't the same, but some people say it's good enough for them. I found it borderline at best using a Dura-Ace 11-34 cassette, Ultegra/XT chain and Praxis Buzz chainrings. The Praxis rings were fine while the chain/cassette combo was simply louder in every sprocket, including right down the middle. My setup required exact micro-adjustment...there was no leeway...either the chain would make a little bit of noise in the biggest cog or in the smaller cogs.

The Shimano chain is 5.25mm, so maybe a 5.15mm Campy 12-speed chain might work better.

You don't need to get AXS chainrings for the flat-top chain. Praxis chainrings work just fine. As for the 10t, I'm actually someone who prefers having it. I like having the option of a 5:1 ratio while also having nearly 1:1 on the back with a 50/34x10-33.

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

Ultegra CS-R8100 11-34 cassette and CN-M8100 chain with Rival RD is working perfectly for me. Absolutely no noise at cassette extremes or anywhere else. I have 1mm spacer behind the cassette which has the RD microadjust bang in the middle of the range at postion 15. Praxis Buzz 52-36 on Red Exogram chainset with Rival FD are also working well. If I can be bothered I might put up a video of this combo in action.

I also have a Sunshine 12-speed 11-34 all steel cassette from AliE. These are pretty cheap and heavy and I have had good results on one of my bikes running Force AXS. However, the spacing of this cassette requires the microadjust to be set at the inboard limit and a super straight hanger to get good shifting. There is no room to fit a spacer behind this cassette to bring it outboard as the threads in the lockring don't connect. I actually couldn't get this cassette to work well on the wheel and bike with the Ultegra/Rival gear above, so there is definitely some variation in performance due to hub geometry and other factors.

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

I've just bought a 12-speed 105 11-34 cassette for my winter bike as it was 1/2 the price of a Rival cassette and 1/3 that of a Force (if you can find one) and fitted it to a set of wheels with Miche Primato Syntesi HG hubs. At first, it was either off in big-big or further down the cassette depending on the microshift adjustment, but after fitting a 1 mm spacer behind the cassette, it was easy enough to get it running quietly and smoothly in every gear. (This is with a new Force flattop chain). I'm guessing the spacer just improves the chainline enough to make it all work.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

bobones wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:17 pm
I've just bought a 12-speed 105 11-34 cassette for my winter bike as it was 1/2 the price of a Rival cassette and 1/3 that of a Force (if you can find one) and fitted it to a set of wheels with Miche Primato Syntesi HG hubs. At first, it was either off in big-big or further down the cassette depending on the microshift adjustment, but after fitting a 1 mm spacer behind the cassette, it was easy enough to get it running quietly and smoothly in every gear. (This is with a new Force flattop chain). I'm guessing the spacer just improves the chainline enough to make it all work.
I am assuming this is a SRAM crank/spider/chainring set up right? 1x or 2x? It sounds like the sram chainset chainline is just a bit too far out when in use with the Shimano cassette.

I am almost done acquiring all the parts for a Sramano experiment on old rim beater. I am guessing since I am using a shimano crankset with a shimano rear cassette, I may not need the spacer, though I will grab one just in case.

I found some videos from Japanese youtubers using these hybrid set ups. There are also tons of MTB videos running the AXS rear derailleurs with shimano cassettes/chains.

8100 cassette, 11 speed Shimano crankset, KMC X12 chain




This guys is using a cheap Sensah cassette



bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

JaeOne3345 wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:10 am
I am assuming this is a SRAM crank/spider/chainring set up right? 1x or 2x? It sounds like the sram chainset chainline is just a bit too far out when in use with the Shimano cassette.
Yes, this is an all Force AXS 2x setup with DUB 48/35 chainset. The other bike, with the Ultegra cassette, has a Shimano chain, Rival derailleurs and a GXP SRAM Red Exogram 11-speed crank with 12-speed compatible 52/36 Praxis Buzz rings. I have another bike with R7000, but I've never tried the Shimano chainset with AXS derailleurs.

joeyb1000
Posts: 404
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

by joeyb1000

I know this doesn't answer your question. But I ran AXS derailleurs with Campy 12s chain, cassette and crankset, it work really well.

NickJHP
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

Well, I found that ZTTO make 12-speed cassettes in SRAM spacing to fit an HG freehub, so I bought an 11-34 from them. When it arrived, I measured the spacing (outside of big cog to outside of small cog) and compared that with the same measurement on an Ultegra 8100 11-34 cassette. The Ultegra cassette is 0.2mm wider, which I think is close enough to be compatible.

Erwin
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Bavaria

by Erwin

How does the 12spd ZTTO cassette shift? I have read 11spd is good (have one myself), but 12spd is solala at the moment.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

bobones wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:33 am
JaeOne3345 wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:10 am
I am assuming this is a SRAM crank/spider/chainring set up right? 1x or 2x? It sounds like the sram chainset chainline is just a bit too far out when in use with the Shimano cassette.
Yes, this is an all Force AXS 2x setup with DUB 48/35 chainset. The other bike, with the Ultegra cassette, has a Shimano chain, Rival derailleurs and a GXP SRAM Red Exogram 11-speed crank with 12-speed compatible 52/36 Praxis Buzz rings. I have another bike with R7000, but I've never tried the Shimano chainset with AXS derailleurs.
Thanks for that bit of info. Gives me the confidence to push on. Cassette finally arrived, so just gotta grab a few chains and strip/prep for wax.

Definitely makes sense as to why you need the spacers on the rear since sram publishes their 2x axs chainline is 45mm, and the older 11 speed 2x chainline as 45.5mm.

Are these bikes rim or disc?

I found another video from a Japanese rider who stated he couldn't get a campy 12 cassette to work, but Shimano11-34 ran flawless.

I should be able to update this thread in about a week hopefully with my own anecdotes from my rim bike.

bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

JaeOne3345 wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 pm
Are these bikes rim or disc?
Rim. One is titanium, the other carbon with mudguard eyelets; both with external cable routing, which is why eTap is the obvious choice for electronic shifting.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

JaeOne3345 wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 pm

Definitely makes sense as to why you need the spacers on the rear since sram publishes their 2x axs chainline is 45mm, and the older 11 speed 2x chainline as 45.5mm.

If the chainline is narrower with road DUB cranks, then it makes no sense to add a 1mm spacer behind a cassette.

Since I have actually tried a Sramano setup, I’lll say that my DA 11-34 cassette definitely sat more inboard than my Red 10-33 while also being wider. I don’t think adding the 1mm spacer would really do much other than serve as a placebo though. It is merely offsetting your indexing by 1mm while the real problem is that Shimano 12-speed cassettes have a wider cog pitch.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:32 pm
If the chainline is narrower with road DUB cranks, then it makes no sense to add a 1mm spacer behind a cassette.
I was thinking of everything in relation to a shimano chainline. The sram chainset chainline is further out than the Shimano and from talking to a few other folks running an arrangement of axs mechs and shimano 12 cassettes coupled with with shimano 11s chainsets, nobody else had to run a 1mm spacer behind. The only person I have seen mention that is bobones, who is running 2x SRAM chainsets on both bikes (AXS and 11s SRAM) with the shimano cassette. I hear you on why it shouldn't be necessary with trim, but it worked for him. Alas, correlation ≠ causation and all that jazz.

Yes, there are all sorts of variables here at play, which the main culprit being the cog pitch. That's understood. Straight/bent hangers, chainline, chain choice, frame geo, what one person considers acceptable, good, etc all come into play. Nobody is denying or naive to any of that. The margin of error here is super small because the pitch is not "right."

If it works out, I saved money on cassettes/freehubs. If not, I will just have to begrudgingly switch to an XDR body and get an AXS cassette/chain. Easy either way.

OP, not sure if you missed it but this is another thread on the same topic with a few folks in the later pages detailing their success with their experimentation. Here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=167412&start=45
Last edited by JaeOne3345 on Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

bobones wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:43 pm
which is why eTap is the obvious choice for electronic shifting.
I hear you loud and clear. That's exactly why I'm even bothering with SRAM. I'm tinkering with an old external routed frame myself. I've got 11s Di2 on my SL7 and want to go electonic on the old frame. Though I never had any issues with it, I'm over mechanical. :noidea:

Got any video of yours in in action?

by Weenie


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bobones
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:32 pm

If the chainline is narrower with road DUB cranks, then it makes no sense to add a 1mm spacer behind a cassette.

Since I have actually tried a Sramano setup, I’lll say that my DA 11-34 cassette definitely sat more inboard than my Red 10-33 while also being wider. I don’t think adding the 1mm spacer would really do much other than serve as a placebo though. It is merely offsetting your indexing by 1mm while the real problem is that Shimano 12-speed cassettes have a wider cog pitch.
You tried Sramano, but couldn't get it to work. Meanwhile I have 2 Sramano bikes with rear shifting as good as my 2 pure AXS bikes. The difference is I used a spacer to make mine work, while you didn't even bother trying it, probably because you think you know better than everyone else. In fact, by saying it's just a placebo, you're basically calling me a liar. I could post a video showing the clear difference made by the spacer, but I don't really need to prove anything to you, and I can't really be bothered right now.

When I first tried the Ultegra cassette there was a pronounced wobble with it on one of my wheels and the spacer was just something I tried to fix the wobble. Turned out that it also stopped the chain hopping in big-big when indexing was good elsewhere on the cassette. Now, when I put the new 105 cassette on a different wheel set, I couldn't tune out the hopping without affecting indexing elsewhere, but lo and behold, adding a spacer allowed the chain to run smoothly on all the cogs.

Why the spacer fixes the wobble remains a complete mystery to me, but I can see how a slightly less extreme chain angle in big-big, with the RD working closer to the middle of its micro adjustment range, is just enough to stop the chain hopping and give satisfactory indexing throughout. Then again, it's probably just a placebo effect :roll:

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