Weight weenies vs watt weenies...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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spartacus
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:31 am
I have literally 20 watts between my Moots and my Aero BMC.. so if you count clothes I can see 40 pretty easy.

My moots is lighter too.

Dont make me put a powermeter on my Look KG86 :)
I would buy 20 watts from a janky kit and helmet to a nice skin suit and helmet but I feel like that's on the extreme end of things.

by Weenie


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maxim809
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by maxim809

Interesting. Here's how I'm reading the moving avg graph to that article:

- Biggest jump came between 2002->2009, coming out of the EPO test. A roughly +1kph jump over 7 years. Or 0.14kph per year.
- Then from 2009->2021 is a slow tail, at +0.4kph. Over 12 years. Or 0.03 per year.

Or normalized, roughly:

2002-2009: +0.14kph/year - with no major innovations other than "Carbon Aero Frame" and "PM" at the very end of the tail in 2008/2009.
vs
2009-2021: +0.03kph/year - with a plethora of innovations.

Then a HUGE jump to the absolute speed in 2021 and 2022. But this article does not talk about the effects the pandemic could have caused in regards to rider motivation, racing style, the peloton getting younger.... Or maybe we're just NOW seeing the benefits of all those marginal gains stack up?

Tho I like that it at least HINTS at the non-equipment details such as:
1. Races in the early days w/o cameras rode at coffee pace because there was no point for the sponsors, dipping avg speed.
2. Some races only go as fast as the breakaway, with the peloton keeping them in check via race radio -- again dictating avg speed.

So ya I think equipment and modern understanding of aero has definitely helped move the speed up higher, especially for those guys doing suicide breakaways.

But racing isn't always about doing a full on TTT, and I think there's too many factors that go into the final average speed to draw definitive conclusions. Tho I admit the data can definitely suggest certain things.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

maxim809 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:07 am
btw I think TBY's point is that in a field with +100 ppl, the guys rotating on the front would naturally just take shorter pulls if they have to do an extra 80~100w extra at pro peloton speeds
My point is that the aero equipment only matters for the front 15 riders or so at any given time and the entire peloton only has so many kJ available. It's not +80W efficiency per body, but +80W for the people in the first row, maybe +40W for the people in the second row, and not much beyond that for the people getting sucked along in a massive draft.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

choochoo46
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:19 am

by choochoo46

spartacus wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:58 am
I would buy 20 watts from a janky kit and helmet to a nice skin suit and helmet but I feel like that's on the extreme end of things.
We all need the new S-Works TT5 helmet with head sock
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ftVjC ... vW5gmZ.jpg

waltthizzney
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

by waltthizzney

Its tire and wheels that are making these bikes go faster. An aero frame is so minimal its basically pointless. Riders are just stronger, just like any sport following evolution.

pmprego
Posts: 2082
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

ArtifactsInMotion wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:26 am
spartacus wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:17 am
I don't agree with "they're just going to take shorter pulls". If the difference was really 100w the speeds would be faster full stop. 20 watts otoh I believe and that's what I would guess based on my personal experience.

Also it's not like 10-20 years ago everyone just wore a flappy kit it was still possible to get tight fitting kit.
The speeds have been trending faster since a decade ago. This is largely attributed to more emphasis on rider fitness,aero, and weight. Here's some supporting material https://cyclingtips.com/2022/06/why-has ... stigation/
Just to highlight something from the link: "So how does a cleaner peloton outperform the dark days of the 90s?"

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

If you rode two bikes with exactly same position and same wheels, not handlebar and such.
Let's say one is a none aero WW bike and the other is an S5.
Same helmet, same wheels and same cloths.
What would the outcome between the two, in terms of speed and needed watt input?
I would like to see a gain i notice without power meter. It should be a "wow effect" on the whole route.
Not just flat, it should be on typical mixed route.
If it would be near a placebo effect, then it doesn't matter for a normal none competing cyclist.
I think what makes you feel best would be the best in this case.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

dgdracing
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:33 pm

by dgdracing

I have asked myself the same question, how much real world difference can you "feel". For me a have two bikes, carbon with 40mm rims and alloy with light alloy wheels - the biggest difference is the ride/comfort/stiffness and not necessarily the aero advantage. I am stilling planning a reproducable roll-out test, where I can compare the (aero) efficiency of those 2 bikes...

V3Rs
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:54 pm

by V3Rs

Maybe no one knows the answer to my inquiry but speed, peloton and strength have zero to do
the aero advantage..... maybe because no one here owns a wind tunnel....

Andrew69
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Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

V3Rs wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:47 pm
I was wondering about the general evolution of aerodynamics on frame and component design.

My question is that if one could start with a great frame from the pre wattage era, say a C-40,
and measure its aerodynamic effeciency with a rider wearing clothing from that era and compare
it to say a Cervelo S-5 with a rider wearing the best clothing of this era, what would we find?
Easy 30-40 w
Just look at the drag of a high spoke count, low profile rim vs a aero optimised deep section wheel for a start. Easy 15w there, especially in any crosswind
Add another 10w between rolling resistance of tyres, then and now...
Wouldnt be hard to find another 10w between the best of the helmets then vs now, add another 5-10w for the frame...

But the biggest difference is the position long/low bikes allow the rider to ride in.
I could easily see the 80w Tobin claims without much trouble.
V3Rs wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:47 pm
I dont even know how this is measured but at the end of the day, wouldrotating ones head downward
a few degrees be more or less than these "improvements?"
Nope, will actually be worse unless youre wearing a skate helmet, which incidently is still probably faster then any road helmet when you drop your head (which is why we see so many short tailed, rounded TT helmets now)

V3Rs
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Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:54 pm

by V3Rs

Ok... assume a theoretical 80w advantage- but
tires and their rolling resistance is not an aero advantage-
nor are ceramic bearing... but maybe they should be included?

How do you take 80w and turn that into something more tangible?

spartacus
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

I would love to hear stories about someone upgrading from a 20 year old cannondale to a modern $15000 super bike and going from getting shelled on group rides to kicking ass at the front. Because that's what 80 watts would do for you.

V3Rs
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Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:54 pm

by V3Rs

No stories- facts only...

spartacus
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

V3Rs wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:16 pm
No stories- facts only...
Real world results are the only facts that concern me. On paper gains tht don't translate to the real world are meaningless. I've yet to see any data that indicate there are aero gains to be had that are anywhere near some of the big numbers claimed. No more arguing from me, I will wait.

V3Rs
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:54 pm

by V3Rs

We need a wind tunnel to get facts... How can the real world provide facts? Unless a tunnel is considered part of the real world...

by Weenie


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