Alpinist CLX sold as tubeless and a crash

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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overdriven98
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:42 pm

by overdriven98

ryanw wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 pm
Shut your hole you troll.

I have told every single one of my customers that the wheels are marketed as tube only, however, they accept the risk and run them tubeless.

Any idiot can smash into a kerb / pot hole and destroy a rim. This can be on any wheel on any bike. Don't blame it on a wheel / setup that has been tested / raced / crashed over hundreds of thousands of miles and never shown so much as a wobble.

As said previously, maybe my many many customers are super lucky and should all go buy lottery tickets. Or they have just had their wheels setup properly and don't blame their own idiocies on a tubeless setup.

I also know of official Specialized shops that have sold these setup tubeless. So go figure.

And I'm not a shop, so do one.
You aren't the one hitting the flood, why are you so trigger??
and to your words, only idiot will hit pot hole? really??

TLN
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

RDY wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:39 pm
Obviously the rim in question here isn't designed for tubeless in the first place. But it's a really bad idea to run road tubeless hookless without a foam inner, and a good idea to run it with hooked. Weight gain is minimal, rolling resistance change within the margin of error for the foams that compress under pressure (and don't touch the tire where it contacts the road). Why take the chance? Aside from protecting against burps and blowouts, and potentially making a flat rideable, you're protecting the rim from pothole damage (to some extent).
Can you give an example of those tape? Are you talking about vittoria foam insert?
It seems that it solves the problem that was artifically created: i.e. remove hooks from wheels to save weight, than add extra weight with foam liner. I assume that insert will require 2x sealant as well.
His: Specialiez S-Works Tarmac SL5 Disc.
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Foam liners hardly add any weight at all and provide additional benefits. You can safely ride down to about 30psi on a 25mm tire with minimal rolling resistance losses. They firm up the tire so that you can corner on that 30psi with it feeling more like 50psi. They’re great for salvaging races that would otherwise end in a DNF or finish DFL.

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C36
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by C36

ryanw wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 pm
Or they have just had their wheels setup properly and don't blame their own idiocies on a tubeless setup.
The limit comes pretty quickly when you have no control what is a good rim / tire combination that "maybe" will never give troubles. Each rider becomes a beta tester.
ryanw wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 pm
I also know of official Specialized shops that have sold these setup tubeless. So go figure.
That's very surprising... I know one who got into serious trouble with Spe Europe exactly for this (mean bike shop forced to contact any single of the Clients -well I guess they were not hundreds...- and get them remove their TL or sign a waver). Consequences of a possibly catastrofic failure from an official store selling out of specs products were seen as an intolerable risk.

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C36
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by C36

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:13 pm
Foam liners hardly add any weight at all and provide additional benefits. You can safely ride down to about 30psi on a 25mm tire with minimal rolling resistance losses. They firm up the tire so that you can corner on that 30psi with it feeling more like 50psi. They’re great for salvaging races that would otherwise end in a DNF or finish DFL.
You have 2 types, open and closed foam-cells inserts, the second crunch under air-pressure, then don't interfere with the tire under normal pressure (no rolling resistance impact), but I understood that they also make almost impossible to remove the tire without cutting it, meaning you can't really rotate your tires or access to fix anything.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:18 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:13 pm
Foam liners hardly add any weight at all and provide additional benefits. You can safely ride down to about 30psi on a 25mm tire with minimal rolling resistance losses. They firm up the tire so that you can corner on that 30psi with it feeling more like 50psi. They’re great for salvaging races that would otherwise end in a DNF or finish DFL.
You have 2 types, open and closed foam-cells inserts, the second crunch under air-pressure, then don't interfere with the tire under normal pressure (no rolling resistance impact), but I understood that they also make almost impossible to remove the tire without cutting it, meaning you can't really rotate your tires or access to fix anything.
I have enough failed attempts installing "airliners" closed foam type you speak of.. they are a little hard to take out, but it's possible. Then the tire can be removed like normal, no need to cut the tire.

I'm letting my new tires "stretch" for another attempt at install.
2019 BMC TM01 Road UCI config 7.36kg

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:15 pm

That's very surprising... I know one who got into serious trouble with Spe Europe exactly for this (mean bike shop forced to contact any single of the Clients -well I guess they were not hundreds...- and get them remove their TL or sign a waver). Consequences of a possibly catastrofic failure from an official store selling out of specs products were seen as an intolerable risk.

EU seems more serious than other realms WRT consumer protection vs just permitting chronic litigious behavior.

Maddie
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by Maddie

ryanw wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 pm
I have told every single one of my customers that the wheels are marketed as tube only, however, they accept the risk and run them tubeless.

Any idiot can smash into a kerb / pot hole and destroy a rim. This can be on any wheel on any bike. Don't blame it on a wheel / setup that has been tested / raced / crashed over hundreds of thousands of miles and never shown so much as a wobble.

As said previously, maybe my many many customers are super lucky and should all go buy lottery tickets. Or they have just had their wheels setup properly and don't blame their own idiocies on a tubeless setup.

I also know of official Specialized shops that have sold these setup tubeless. So go figure.

And I'm not a shop, so do one.
Isn’t it a bit ironic that with your many many customers you still consider your business to be a hobby? It may not be your main source of income but I’m sure you have the intention to make a bit of profit. Then it’s officially not a hobby anymore ;-)

What I find confusing is this bit: You informed your customers that the wheels are marketed as tube only and that they all accepted the risk. But what risk?
I mean if you tell your customers that the wheels ARE TL but only marketed as tube only, then there shouldn’t be any risk at all to run them TL?
Last edited by Maddie on Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Singular
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

Well, the deal with these types of matters is that the shop can very well set up a non-tubeless setup ad tubeless and in the hand of a owner/rider/mechanic that knows what they're doing, takes great care of equipment, rides smoothly and follows the instructions/procedures and there's no problem at all.

But then there's the majority - the ones thst ghostinthemachine refer to that have either rusty or wetlube-drenched OSPW drivetrains, no idea of what pressure they're running (should be hard, right?!), wondering what that metallic grinding sound is from their disc brake pads, melt carbon clinchers left and right and just happen to flat more than others.

It's for those that these limitations (and generous margins) exist, in order to keep then from killing themselves. I'm one of those caring and careful users (one flat in...30000kms?) that have built own TL setups from non-TL-approved tires and rims when tubeless gravel stuff wasn't available. But I would not put them in the hands of Harry Hamfist with my business betting on it.

And ryanw - with my best intentions: that is not the way to represent even a hobby business in public, and make sure that each and every customer that rolls out of the shop on a non-TL-but-TL setup has signed a very clear waiver. Even not in an American setting, that can become a very unpleasant matter of liability if-and-when something goes south.

stevesbike
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by stevesbike

This is the sort of question that is useless to ask for internet advice. Your friend needs to contact a lawyer and discuss the specifics of the case in the state they live in.

req110
Posts: 517
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Location: Prague, Czechia

by req110

ryanw wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 pm
Shut your hole you troll.

I have told every single one of my customers that the wheels are marketed as tube only, however, they accept the risk and run them tubeless.

Any idiot can smash into a kerb / pot hole and destroy a rim. This can be on any wheel on any bike. Don't blame it on a wheel / setup that has been tested / raced / crashed over hundreds of thousands of miles and never shown so much as a wobble.

As said previously, maybe my many many customers are super lucky and should all go buy lottery tickets. Or they have just had their wheels setup properly and don't blame their own idiocies on a tubeless setup.

I also know of official Specialized shops that have sold these setup tubeless. So go figure.

And I'm not a shop, so do one.
I haven't seen such big amount of arogance and offense on forum for grown people. Are we located on some amateur "pro"-gaming platform?
S-Works SL7 Dusty Blue 56cm @ Sram RED AXS Quarq & ZIPP 404 Firecrest (7.2kg)
S-Works Epic 2022 Gloss Fluid L @ Sram XX1 AXS Quarq & Berg Ratheberg (9.4kg)

K4m1k4z3
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by K4m1k4z3

FIJIGabe wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:34 pm
OnTheRivet wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:08 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:45 am
Someone spending that kind of $$$ should do their own research. It's widely know 1st gen is not tubeless. That being said they could probably win or settle out of court.
First gen shipped as Tubeless Ready, even had it written on the tape. They were changed to Tubes Only after some failures like the one described.
Actually, it was the other way around. They were designed as "tubeless ready", but they had one massive blow out (according to CyclingTips, it was Peter Sagan: "In December 2019, not long before the wheels were set to launch...", https://cyclingtips.com/2022/05/roval-r ... -tubeless/), and quickly changed the wheels to "tubed only" before any were sold to consumers. If they'd sold them as tubeless and then discovered the problem, you would have had a large recall and "stop use" order, worldwide.
The way I understand things is that the wheels had been developed as tubeless - passed all the required testing protocols and made it very fair into the real-world testing stage. All the teams and riders were testing them as tubeless, all was fine and dandy. They even sent the first batch of production-ready samples out to the journalists for review with a preinstalled tubeless-ready tape. Again, no problems. Supposedly the first batches of complete bikes packed in boxes came with a preinstalled tubeless-ready tape as well.
Then comes Sagan and bunny hop aerial smashes the wheel right into a curb. The wheel fails (well... DUH), cracks and the sudden release of pressure blows out the sidewall of the rim.

I mean... As long as one doesn't plan on smashing their wheels into curbs they should be fine.
I've got a 1st gen Alpinist CL. 2 layers of TESA 4289 tubeless tape. GP 5000 TL which are notorious for their secure (tight) fit. ~65 kg and pressures in the low 70's. I think I'll be all right.
But that's just my humble opinion.
2022 Specialized Tarmac SL7 Expert | Ultegra R8100 | Roval Alpinist CL
2019 Specialized Diverge E5 Comp | 105 R7000
2018 Specialized Epic HT Comp Carbon | SRAM GX 1x11
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C36
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by C36

K4m1k4z3 wrote:
Then comes Sagan and bunny hop aerial smashes the wheel right into a curb. The wheel fails (well... DUH), cracks and the sudden release of pressure blows out the sidewall of the rim.

That’s the PR story, no doubt it has been reproduced and then, they made an educated conclusion.
K4m1k4z3 wrote: I mean... As long as one doesn't plan on smashing their wheels into curbs they should be fine.
I've got a 1st gen Alpinist CL. 2 layers of TESA 4289 tubeless tape. GP 5000 TL which are notorious for their secure (tight) fit. ~65 kg and pressures in the low 70's. I think I'll be all right.
But that's just my humble opinion.
Based on the “nothing happens, so nothing will happen”. Having an expertise in industrial risks I can’t get my head around people going against manufacturers recommendation. In case of serious accident (involving 3rd party), insurances should / may just not protect you…

K4m1k4z3
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by K4m1k4z3

C36 wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:33 pm
Based on the “nothing happens, so nothing will happen”. Having an expertise in industrial risks I can’t get my head around people going against manufacturers recommendation. In case of serious accident (involving 3rd party), insurances should / may just not protect you…
Thing is, all information points towards the conclusion that if that one weird Sagan accident hadn't happened, the wheels very likely would've made it onto the open market as TLR.

How many failures have we heard about by now? Could probably count them on one hand. Plus we don't know the specifics of those failures such as tyre/tape/pressure. Would that be enough for Specialized to issue a recall? I don't know.
2022 Specialized Tarmac SL7 Expert | Ultegra R8100 | Roval Alpinist CL
2019 Specialized Diverge E5 Comp | 105 R7000
2018 Specialized Epic HT Comp Carbon | SRAM GX 1x11
2018 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 Disc | Ultegra R8000

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C36
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by C36

K4m1k4z3 wrote: Thing is, all information points towards the conclusion that if that one weird Sagan accident hadn't happened, the wheels very likely would've made it onto the open market as TLR.

That’s 100% PR story with all the filter and romance added to it. It would be very naive and ignoring how even a basic industry works (it’s questionable some brands are serious, but as much as I don’t like Spe marketing, they are not cowboys) that you take such a decision without reproducing the incident.

K4m1k4z3 wrote: How many failures have we heard about by now? Could probably count them on one hand. Plus we don't know the specifics of those failures such as tyre/tape/pressure.
I know one, Tobin mentioned 3-4, OP has one. Knowing the specifics is irrelevant cause they won’t tell you anything
K4m1k4z3 wrote: Would that be enough for Specialized to issue a recall? I don't know.
Well that a exactly what they did, restricting to tubetype use a product initially designed as TL (and that honor Spe to take such a decision).

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