The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

Fact: Disc bikes weigh more.
Fact: Disc bikes cost more.
Fact: Tomahto has never made a decent argument against my arguments for rim brake.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Good thing the rim brake still exists so you don't have to ride a bike that weighs more or costs more.

Still want to point out that after adjusting for inflation a 2021 Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8.0 Disc with mechanical Ultegra is priced significantly lower than a 2007 Scott CR1 Pro with mechanical Ultegra. Both also weigh about the same.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

bobones wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:59 am
In the conditions that would make SwissStop Disc RS pads honk and scrape, aluminum braketracks would be devoured within a season of such riding. Carbon braketracks would be non-functional.
I get that RS pads are great for reducing noise, but our own Mr. Gib reported that he can wear out rear resin pads within 15 hours of just riding and not braking much, which is going to be more expensive and hassle than changing rims every year or two.
Sorry but no way. Avoiding replacing rims is the best rationale behind having disc brakes. $200 - $400 for decent alloy rims, $100 for the build, downtime vs $20 - $60 for pads and no more than 2 minutes of your time. No matter how shitty disc brakes might be in some situations, rebuilding wheels sucks more.

I guess I've learned that I hate disc brakes, but I hate rim brakes more.
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

Right......we should "stop crying" cause someone still makes rim brake, and some random CD bike MSRP is good deal compared to something sold in BM 14 years ago. Therefore disc brake now weighs same and costs less? Got it.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Matt28NJ wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:53 pm
[I'm disk/rim neutral, will move to disc in a few years, currently own a fleet of rim brakes with various carbon race wheels and aluminum training wheels]

DISClaimer (see what I did there :) ) over, as an aside I'm shocked to hear about rim brake tracks wearing out so quickly for some of the posters on here.

As an example in my life, I've got a Ksyrium front wheel with over 25k on it with tons of life left. I am a wheel wh**e and switch wheels a lot... but this wheel has been ridden in all conditions, although it clearly sounds like a lot less crap weather than some of you ride in. Kudos to you guys for being flahutes and riding in bad weather.

p.s. since this is the internet, be advised that this was not a sarcastic post, I'm actually surprised about people wearing brake tracks so fast.
Depending on terrain and conditions you can wear out a rim in one wet grimy winter. I spent one week (2000 km) in the mountains in the rain and put some serious wear on a set of alloys. Serious technical descending, a bit gritty in places, and even some unfinished surfaces - horrible roads in general.Interesting that the tires hardly wore at all - it was so wet I assume the water reduced the friction between road and tire.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:44 am

I assume the water reduced the friction between road and tire.

Slippage/skidding is the main cause of tread wear. A wet, slippery road surface is not doing your tires any favors in terms of prolonging its lifespan.

bobones
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by bobones

Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:28 am
Sorry but no way. Avoiding replacing rims is the best rationale behind having disc brakes. $200 - $400 for decent alloy rims, $100 for the build, downtime vs $20 - $60 for pads and no more than 2 minutes of your time. No matter how shitty disc brakes might be in some situations, rebuilding wheels sucks more.

I guess I've learned that I hate disc brakes, but I hate rim brakes more.
I don't know where you get your figures from, but on my winter bike, it's £30-£50 per rim (DT Swiss R460, Mavic Open Pro UST, Ambrosio P20) and I redo them myself. I have more than one set of wheels so there is no riding downtime. I actually like building and relacing wheels, so it's not a chore. Like I said, I don't care what anyone else does, but disc brakes don't make sense for me if they are going to be noisy and/or I will be changing pads every couple of weeks if I use the quieter ones (RS).

You said you wore out a set of resin pads in 15 hours riding time and 50% was worn in 3 hours - that is less economical than chaning a rim every one or two winters as far as I am concerned.

I would quite like to try disc brakes and was looking for a frameset that could take Juin Tech GTs, but it would be a dry weather bike only as I refuse to tolerate the noise. It's ironic that the conditions that make most sense for disc brakes (wet gritty roads that wear down rims and where rim brakes perform poorly) are the ones where they're most annoying.

mgrl
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by mgrl

openwheelracing wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:34 am
Right......we should "stop crying"
One can but dream

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corky
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by corky

bobones wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:48 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:28 am
Sorry but no way. Avoiding replacing rims is the best rationale behind having disc brakes. $200 - $400 for decent alloy rims, $100 for the build, downtime vs $20 - $60 for pads and no more than 2 minutes of your time. No matter how shitty disc brakes might be in some situations, rebuilding wheels sucks more.

I guess I've learned that I hate disc brakes, but I hate rim brakes more.
I don't know where you get your figures from, but on my winter bike, it's £30-£50 per rim (DT Swiss R460, Mavic Open Pro UST, Ambrosio P20) and I redo them myself. I have more than one set of wheels so there is no riding downtime. I actually like building and relacing wheels, so it's not a chore. Like I said, I don't care what anyone else does, but disc brakes don't make sense for me if they are going to be noisy and/or I will be changing pads every couple of weeks if I use the quieter ones (RS).

You said you wore out a set of resin pads in 15 hours riding time and 50% was worn in 3 hours - that is less economical than chaning a rim every one or two winters as far as I am concerned.



I would quite like to try disc brakes and was looking for a frameset that could take Juin Tech GTs, but it would be a dry weather bike only as I refuse to tolerate the noise. It's ironic that the conditions that make most sense for disc brakes (wet gritty roads that wear down rims and where rim brakes perform poorly) are the ones where they're most annoying.
.....this....... I have a rim-braked bike and a disc brakes bike, I use the rim brake bike in the wet because the banshee shriek of discs in the wet overrides any braking or wear concerns.

Lina
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by Lina

bobones wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:48 am
I would quite like to try disc brakes and was looking for a frameset that could take Juin Tech GTs, but it would be a dry weather bike only as I refuse to tolerate the noise. It's ironic that the conditions that make most sense for disc brakes (wet gritty roads that wear down rims and where rim brakes perform poorly) are the ones where they're most annoying.
So you're here preaching how rim brakes are superior but haven't even tried disc brakes?

blutto
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by blutto

Lina wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:24 am
bobones wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:48 am
I would quite like to try disc brakes and was looking for a frameset that could take Juin Tech GTs, but it would be a dry weather bike only as I refuse to tolerate the noise. It's ironic that the conditions that make most sense for disc brakes (wet gritty roads that wear down rims and where rim brakes perform poorly) are the ones where they're most annoying.
So you're here preaching how rim brakes are superior but haven't even tried disc brakes?
Do you have to try a disc brake equipped bike to understand a cost analysis that doesn't favour disc use, or to hear noises that disc usage often produce that one finds annoying ?....or to read reviews/critical comments that are not pro-disc....and then to make comments based on that...seems kinda reasonable don't it ?...

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

yes

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Dov
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by Dov

blutto wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:31 pm
Do you have to try a disc brake equipped bike to understand a cost analysis that doesn't favour disc use, or to hear noises that disc usage often produce that one finds annoying ?....or to read reviews/critical comments that are not pro-disc....and then to make comments based on that...seems kinda reasonable don't it ?...

Cheers
Seems a dangerous precedent.

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Lina
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by Lina

blutto wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:31 pm
Lina wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:24 am
bobones wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:48 am
I would quite like to try disc brakes and was looking for a frameset that could take Juin Tech GTs, but it would be a dry weather bike only as I refuse to tolerate the noise. It's ironic that the conditions that make most sense for disc brakes (wet gritty roads that wear down rims and where rim brakes perform poorly) are the ones where they're most annoying.
So you're here preaching how rim brakes are superior but haven't even tried disc brakes?
Do you have to try a disc brake equipped bike to understand a cost analysis that doesn't favour disc use, or to hear noises that disc usage often produce that one finds annoying ?....or to read reviews/critical comments that are not pro-disc....and then to make comments based on that...seems kinda reasonable don't it ?...

Cheers
Yes you do. Because the internet is full of people that dismiss disc brakes completely after having tried them once in a bad setup and then go preaching on how disc brakes are bad. When it was their setup that was bad, not disc brakes. Using pro races as examples is also bad. They use whatever equipment their sponsors give them most of the time. And even if they're using non sponsor correct equipment it's performance first and no one cares about the noise. There are options, even mentioned in this thread quite often, that are not going to howl at the first sign of water.

Take Froome as an example. The first time he tried disc brakes was with sub optimal equipment and people on this forum could've told that it's going to act just the way he said it did. Never discers like you took that statement as gospel and applied it to all disc brakes everywhere. Now that he's gotten a setup where they ironed out the problems suddenly he's a sell out shill trying to sell new bikes.

So yes, unless you have first hand experience with disc brakes in a widely recommended rotor and pad combination your comments are pretty much invalid when you come here complaining about warping discs or howling pads.

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Matt28NJ
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by Matt28NJ

Reading between the lines, it seems that some of the most vehement anti-disc folks on this thread aren't really that anti-disc at all. What some are saying IMO is:

"The current generation of disc brakes have some annoying compromises (noise, maintenance, consumable component life) and high costs to to me to convert my existing ecosystem and investment in equipment to different tech."

Just like crap canti brakes many years ago, rim brake systems continued to get better and better over the years to get where we're at today.

I'm looking forward to seeing road disc get better and better in the coming years.

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